Author Topic: What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?  (Read 13802 times)

Offline g33k

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Re: What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?
« Reply #90 on: September 01, 2022, 10:28:06 PM »
Once again Harry only became Mab’s Vassal in Changes in taking on the Winter Knight Mantle ...

The point is nothing to do with Harry's "Vassal" relationship (which doesn't exist, pre-Changes where Harry takes the WK Mantle); but with Lea's Vassalage to Mab.  It also is about Lea's "Faerie Godmother" relationship to Harry, which transitively becomes Mab's when she puts Lea on ice.

I (very) strongly suspect that -- if it expires -- Lea's "Faerie Godmother" bargain expired the moment Harry became WK.  That was the point Harry became "grown up" from the perspective of governing law.  Before that, Lea was fully-obligated (insofar as the bargain held) to "protect" Harry as his FG; and Mab if she acted to prevent Lea.

I also suspect the role of "FG" is substantive & meaningful under Faerie Law... it's possible Margaret didn't have to bargain very hard at all, to get comprehensive and far-reaching protections for Harry, as soon as "FG" was invoked.  Indeed, she may have had remarkably LITTLE room on that side of the bargain.

... he was not a vassal and not owed any form of obligation of protection by Mab ...

Harry's vassalage (or rather, as you point out, lack thereof) was irrelevant to the case.  Lea was Mab's vassal, and that is the relevant point:  when Mab puts Lea on ice, she takes over the entirety of Lea's obligations.

Lea's Murder Garden -- part of her FG duties -- is still there, in Changes.  Lea was still Harry's FG (at least up through the start of the book).

As previously stated, Lea is Harry’s stalker ...
I see very little light between Lea-as-stalker vs. Lea-as-Faerie-Godmother.
This is Lea we're talking about!

Several of the quotes provided in this thread show both Lea and Mab expressing that the FG obligation still exists; and this is well into Harry's (mortal-POV) "adult" years.

You aren't providing ANY data to the contrary, only personal-interpretation stuff that is explicitly contradicted by the quotes already provided.
 

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?
« Reply #91 on: September 03, 2022, 05:42:20 PM »
I have been trying to unpick the bundle of faerie obligations,  so please do not misquote me.
 
The first obligation laid down on Harry was without his consent due to a bargain between Margaret and Lea. That was likely still operative by the time Harry called on Lea, Lea could not make a bargain to protect Harry if she was already protecting Harry, she cannot accept a gift which any such a bargain would have been at that time especially as Harry was a minor she could however leave Harry with the idea that he had made a bargain with her as leverage for a future legitimate bargain with Harry when his previous protection had lapsed which occurred in Grave Peril, when Harry was of age.

Vassalage is a far more complex web of relationships it is the difference between a contract for services and a contract of service, with Vassalage the latter, Lea’s Bargains the former. Under the latter Mab would be responsible for finishing Molly’s training, under the former she would not.

The Fae I think accept the sovereignty of the mortal jurisdiction in which any bargain is made where the mortal is physically making the bargain, as the governing law of the contract, there is a WOJ that Mab steps very carefully in the UK because it too has a Sovereign Queen (one reason why the White Council is probably based there). Note Mab AND Nameless are both qualified Lawyers in the Illinois Bar which is suggestive that their dealings with Mortals actually do intersect with mortal legal jurisdictions. Fae law does not seem to apply as the governing law unless the bargain is actually made in the Never Never. Vassalage on the other hand is clearly subject to Winter Law as the governing law wherever the parties subject to it may be, that too is clear from The Law. Harry was also taken into the Never Never to enter into vassalage as the Winter Knight, making that the governing law.

I fully expect Nameless to try to get even with Harry by taking on Larry Fowlers case, as that is a way Nameless can use the law of the Illinois jurisdiction without falling fouler of Winter Law. For example The Witchcraft Act of 1604 is apparently still valid in Illinois and Harry has broken most of those provisions, a year in prison and a trip to the pillory may be in order for the self-proclaimed Wizard of Chicago. Look it up, it’s a hoot, especially if you get a hard copy and tick all of Harry’s infractions.

Offline vincentric

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Re: What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?
« Reply #92 on: September 03, 2022, 07:40:33 PM »
But as far as we have been told in print, Margaret's bargain with Lea has not obligated Harry to do anything.

Harry owed Lea because he bargained for the power to fight HWWB with her. It is only tangentially related because were unlikely to meet without it.

Also the favor system and the vassalage systems are completely separate. Favors are one shot tit for tat tasks that can be very unequal and can be serious or whimsical in fulfillment.(Or both, "Bring me a donut" comes to mind.) Vassalage is a long term series of obligations that can affect all aspects of life and can transfer generationally.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?
« Reply #93 on: September 03, 2022, 08:47:56 PM »
I love definition wars.  But I love the text even more. Harry never realizes  that Lea is protecting him until  Changes.  Which I would speculate was about the time that Butcher folded the idea into whatever passes for canon for him. At which point he writes the backstory support for  the idea. The first clear indication however lies in Summer Knight when Lea warns him about the Stone Table.

I think that CT may have a point about the Law.  It's clumsy  text but I don't think it  speaks to Cowl's origin since I seem to remember a WOJ where Butcher says that Cowl is someone we've seen in the text prior to now, which would leave Nameless out.