What the heck was Justin *UP* to??!?

[forumghost]

Imho the real problem with a Wamp killing Malcolm is that they would absolutely have killed harry too.

[Mira]

Imho the real problem with a Wamp killing Malcolm is that they would absolutely have killed harry too.

  Not necessarily so, someone or thing had plans for the young star born.  Actually Justin could have killed Malcolm, since he did or nearly enthrall Elaine, Justin knew mind magic.  We still don't know the cause of death as written on a certificate somewhere, all we know is supposedly Malcolm died with a smile on his face.  Lord knows what a warlock could do with mind magic.  We've seen what the Corpsetaker can do, she nearly killed Harry with it.

[forumghost]

  Not necessarily so, someone or thing had plans for the young star born.  Actually Justin could have killed Malcolm, since he did or nearly enthrall Elaine, Justin knew mind magic.  We still don't know the cause of death as written on a certificate somewhere, all we know is supposedly Malcolm died with a smile on his face.  Lord knows what a warlock could do with mind magic.  We've seen what the Corpsetaker can do, she nearly killed Harry with it.

True, but if a Raith went after Malcolm, they'd want Margaret's son dead for sure.

 My money would be on Justin getting Harry isolated and desperate in the system so he could swoop in and 'save' him as the more likely candidate.

[morriswalters]

True, but if a Raith went after Malcolm, they'd want Margaret's son dead for sure.

 My money would be on Justin getting Harry isolated and desperate in the system so he could swoop in and 'save' him as the more likely candidate.

Madeline Raith marched to the beat of a different drummer.  Papa appears to have cared less.  Maybe BC.

[g33k]

Imho the real problem with a Wamp killing Malcolm is that they would absolutely have killed harry too.

Anyone with an "Oblivion War" agenda (e.g. Lara) could have wanted to manipulate (but keep alive at virtually any cost) a Starborn...

And a Whamp under orders might have killed Malcolm but left Harry alive; or a Whamp unaware of the whole Starborn issue.  Whether or not a Whamp did the deed, the question remains "who aimed the Ramp at Malcolm and/or Harry?"

Or a Whamp could have done Malcolm, turned to Harry saying, "and now to wrap up this loose thread..."

Only to face Lea, asking them "Have you ever heard of a Faerie Godmother ... ?"

[Mira]

Anyone with an "Oblivion War" agenda (e.g. Lara) could have wanted to manipulate (but keep alive at virtually any cost) a Starborn...

And a Whamp under orders might have killed Malcolm but left Harry alive; or a Whamp unaware of the whole Starborn issue.  Whether or not a Whamp did the deed, the question remains "who aimed the Ramp at Malcolm and/or Harry?"

Or a Whamp could have done Malcolm, turned to Harry saying, "and now to wrap up this loose thread..."

Only to face Lea, asking them "Have you ever heard of a Faerie Godmother ... ?"

I don't think it went down that way, it would be an interesting horrific twist if Harry found out that it was Lara that murdered his father.  If a vamp did it, it would have to have been the branch of the White Court that killed with pleasure.  If it went down that way or some other way, the question still remains, who was the cat working the paw?  I need to go back and reread Harry's flash back in Ghost Story, and his conversations with Lea as well.  There are hints there to be gleaned.

[g33k]

I don't think it went down that way ...

I don't think it was a Whamp, either.
At least, not directed by a Whamp -- one of them may have been somebody's "murder weapon," of course; that whole "Malcolm died with a smile on his face" really could have been Jim foreshadowing his intentions, instead of Jim planting a red herring.  Only time will tell, I suspect...

I'm just presenting the notion as a "what-if" thought experiment.

Meanwhile, I keep going back to the WoJ that, if Harry knew what Lea had done, he'd want to kill her (I really need to track down that WoJ and re-read it!).  Remember, atop Arctis Tor he was "gallantly" moved to rescue Lea.  I think there are very very few things Lea might have done that would move Harry murderously.

Killing Malcolm is very high on that list; or killing his mom (killing her by removing the veil on her, the moment Harry was born; knowing an Entropy-Curse would strike momentarily).

Hmmmmm.

What if Margaret bargained a twofer?  "Protect my Starborn babe 'til they're old enough and strong enough to protect themself."  That will, of necessity, obligate Lea to veil Margaret too (until the baby is born).  What if she wasn't yet pregnant?  What if that's the core of her "keep safe from Raith's Entropy-Curse"?  I expect others were searching for her, too.  A top-tier Faerie veil could do the trick; the entire WC warden-corps couldn't get through one.

I remain convinced that Mab (she of the far-reaching plans; she whose largest activity is the anti-Outsider war) was profoundly complicit in Margaret's intention to have a Starborn child; and thus, so too Mab's handmaiden.

... it would be an interesting horrific twist if Harry found out that it was Lara that murdered his father ...

Yes indeed; and this "torment Harry" element is, to me, the single greatest argument in favor of this notion.

... that way or some other way, the question still remains, who was the cat working the paw?

Absolutely.  Much more meaningful to know who the cat, and why the kill.

[Mira]

Meanwhile, I keep going back to the WoJ that, if Harry knew what Lea had done, he'd want to kill her (I really need to track down that WoJ and re-read it!).  Remember, atop Arctis Tor he was "gallantly" moved to rescue Lea.  I think there are very very few things Lea might have done that would move Harry murderously.

 That goes back to the "what ifs."  Okay, if Harry found out it was Lea who talked his mother into giving birth to a star born? What if, and Lea keeps hinting at this, that he didn't need to bargain with her to get what he needed to confront Justin? I could go on, but actually when you think about it it makes the most sense.  Lea has said more than once that all she gave Harry was confidence.  I think even Jim has said that she didn't do all that much for Harry, but young Harry foolishly put himself into Fae debt which ultimately led to him becoming Winter Knight.  As Harry's god mother with the obligation to protect her god son, what if no "bargain" was needed? It was a trick, instigated by Mab perhaps, but a trick that kept Harry bound to the Winter Court.  The Fae cannot lie, but if you don't do your homework they will screw you in any deal, what chance would a frightened sixteen year old have in such a negotiation?  In other words, Lea was obligated to protect him, no promises needed on young Harry's part to get it, but since no one taught him that fact, Mab would say the fact that no one did, wasn't her problem. 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The one thing which would move Harry to murder is an attack on his family, the death of Malcolm or the loss of Maggie.

[Mira]

The one thing which would move Harry to murder is an attack on his family, the death of Malcolm or the loss of Maggie.

Yup, so Harry strangles Lara on their wedding night...

[morriswalters]

There has always been disharmony between when Margaret left and when Harry was conceived. How did Lea know that she would get what she paid for? Nobody could predict that Harry would become a wizard.

[Mira]

There has always been disharmony between when Margaret left and when Harry was conceived. How did Lea know that she would get what she paid for? Nobody could predict that Harry would become a wizard.

 The impression I've always gotten is the Winter Court had a lot to do with Margaret's final decision to conceive a star born child.  Lea has dropped hints that it was the Winter Court's assurance of the baby's safety that was the final clincher.  I think Margaret knew once she left Lord Raith that she was doomed, whether or not she conceived a child. I doubt that Lord Raith took being dumped for a mere vanilla mortal very well.  As to whether or not the child would be born a wizard, odds were good, given Margaret's genetics, it is also possible that it's star born status would boost that chance.. But even if the child wasn't born a wizard, being a star born child ain't nothing, as they say.

As to why she didn't ask it for Malcolm's safety as well is a mystery.. It could be that it just wasn't possible.

[g33k]

The one thing which would move Harry to murder is an attack on his family, the death of Malcolm or the loss of Maggie.

I have one other theory:  I think that Molly was set up by Mab & Lea.

Michael -- as wielder of Amoracchius -- was very much "on their radar."  Doubly-so as a close friend & ally of Dresden.

That puts Molly on their radar, too.  And when she started showing talent, I think they moved in and began working on her.

Herewith, my WAG (in the form of questions) -- what if Lea began interacting with proto-wizard Molly, struggling-to-learn Molly, wanting-power (for all the "right" reasons, but...) Molly?  What if Lea directed Molly away from the safer and more-benign channels?  What if Lea set mind-magic and other Lawbreaking in Molly's path -- intentionally?

What if Molly turning to Black Magic was largely the work of the Leanansidhe???

Murderously-angry Harry, much?

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Molly was not part of Margaret’s deal with Lea, at this point Michael and Charity had not even met.it therefore falls outside the WOJ.

Lea and Mab certainly were interested in Molly, but it’s Molly who initiated the forbidden  mind magic, which was immediately picked up by the Gatekeeper who we subsequently learn is actually an ally of Mab’s. The Gatekeeper informed Mab before Harry that she had the potential to be a back-up Winter Lady Candidate if she fell directly in Harry’s orbit, and Mab engineered much of the rest. In parallel to this was the attack on Arctis Tor which seems to have been undertaken to take advantage of the maneuvering between Mab and Titania to bring Molly to Arctis Tor, Mab needed plausible deniability so she and the majority of her forces were committed elsewhere so the Phobophages could go “on a frolic of their own”. Nameless and his allies are suspected of the attack, whether a secondary purpose was to try and flush him to try and rescue Lea/Nemesis is a point of debate. Mab needed plausible deniability because Molly was a potential wizard and therefore within the provenance of the White Council. Mab without this plausible deniability may have been in breach of her own accords. This is reasoning Nameless would understand and seek to exploit, and Mab would know this bait would work.

Remember Michael and his family were under the protection of the White God, another subsequently revealed ally of Mab’s and Michael does in fact turn up later to save Molly before the White Council, a definite collaboration between Uriel, Gatekeeper and Mab, suggesting the entire scenario was set up by them in the first place to get a good look at Molly and provide an excuse for Arctis Tor to be exposed which Nameless would swallow, forcing him to show his hand.

It’s how Mab operated in Skin Game, though by then Harry was a participant, rather than a dupe in that Scheme.

The practical effect was;-

1. Molly became Harry’s apprentice and on the road to being the Winter Lady
2. Nameless was flushed out as a confirmed traitor to the Winter Court
3. An unknown Denarian was shown to be working with  Nameless, which was confirmed by the attack.
4. No breach of the Accords pressed by the White Council against Winter.

Gatekeeper, Mab and Uriel gain under this scenario

[morriswalters]

I doubt that nameless was a twinkle in Butcher's eye when PG was written. I don't think he was in the same universe even. I might buy stock in this if somebody can give a reason why Madrigal was there.

The timing is close but Lea is pretty much on ice when Molly comes into her magic. Certainly she's nemfected. So cooperation with Mab would seem to be a non starter.