Author Topic: Mab is cleaning up the White Court  (Read 7913 times)

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2022, 11:23:12 PM »
Maybe, but he is portrayed as a drunk and a party guy.  Other then the fact that he was good looking, rich and and had hot women, he seemed to be a lot like me. ;)

Offline g33k

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2022, 05:34:03 PM »
No, no, I am not arguing it is a bad idea! I LIKE the idea. I just think if it was implemented we would have had word leak thru Lara or Thomas by now.  Earlier in the series this would have fit great. 

I think there are a *LOT* of "little details" of this sort, that Jim has in his mind as he writes, that don't get revealed in a "timely" way.

He loves to leave "easter eggs" strewn around.  Some are more consequential than others.

Offline g33k

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2022, 06:09:12 PM »
I didn't say the Whamps developed it. They could have bought the tech.  I doubt it is WC work - selling defenses against their own attack? Not smart. Svaltalfs? Could be. I think they are the best bet here
I don't think they "bought the tech" -- they bought the item:  1 set of armbands, magical-warding.
The "tech" is useless to them, because very few (if any!) Whamp magicians are strong enough to enchant such magic items.

I doubt the White Council would have "officially" transacted with the Whamps to provide such an item.  But one wizard selling "under the table"?   Very possible IMO.  Stolen from a WC wizard?  Another good possibility.  Commanded from a WC wizard whose will was Whamp-subverted?  Another possibility.  LOTS of ways for it to be "White Council work."

But although it "could have been" White Council, I think it was Dark Elves:

Swartalves would be a good bet ...
Well, i was thinking they are logical because Harry could walk around their compound/Molly's apartment without stuff blowing up from his Murphyonic field, so they likely know some magic negating/antimagic hardening tricks.
There's Molly's apartment, yes... but also:

The Raith Deeps!  It had that cheesyclassy mood-lighting going on.  Survived the (repeated?) Entropy-Rituals, survived Harry's fight with Papa Raith, and even IIRC survived Harry&Carlos' duel with the Whamps.  High emotions, lots of un-warded magic being flung about... should have blown all lighting.  I'm pretty sure the Raith Deeps' lighting was Svartalven work.  And, that being the case, the warding arm-bands seem likely Svartalven, too.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2022, 06:31:46 PM by g33k »

Offline Ed0517

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2022, 03:25:22 AM »
I don't think they "bought the tech" -- they bought the item:  1 set of armbands, magical-warding.
The "tech" is useless to them, because very few (if any!) Whamp magicians are strong enough to enchant such magic items.

OK, that is more where i was going, they bough the item. Like when a company says they are investing in new technology for their assembly line, they are not buying the engineering blueprints and chip specs, they are getting stuff installed.

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I doubt the White Council would have "officially" transacted with the Whamps to provide such an item.  But one wizard selling "under the table"?   Very possible IMO.  Stolen from a WC wizard?  Another good possibility.  Commanded from a WC wizard whose will was Whamp-subverted?  Another possibility.  LOTS of ways for it to be "White Council work."

Selling? No way. The wizard weakens himself. Whamp subverted? seems unlikely. He'd have to have it already. Stolen? I gotta think stuff like that is held VERY securely, but this one could be.   But I am thinking non-Council.

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There's Molly's apartment, yes... but also:

The Raith Deeps!  It had that cheesyclassy mood-lighting going on.  Survived the (repeated?) Entropy-Rituals, survived Harry's fight with Papa Raith, and even IIRC survived Harry&Carlos' duel with the Whamps.  High emotions, lots of un-warded magic being flung about... should have blown all lighting.  I'm pretty sure the Raith Deeps' lighting was Svartalven work.  And, that being the case, the warding arm-bands seem likely Svartalven, too.

I think the Deeps were likely simple mortal work. The Whamps are not envisioning magical duels happening much. Harry is not blowing up streetlamps and making cars freeze in place every time he walks near one. Cheesy lighting? Mortals can't do that? Ever hear of Las Vegas?

Rituals cast by non-wizards may not have the short-out-the-electronics aura that wizards do. Molly has a cell phone, doesn't she? Up to her ear! So Mantles don't blow things. And a cell phone has far more elaborate circuitry than wiring. Mac has fans and lights in the pub, and he caters to multiple wizards, not Harry level, usually, but there for HOURS every day. Where Harry LIVED, even continual low level emissions can toast stuff. But he didn't blow up his office.  Or the others in the building.

Svaltalf work is gonna be high - and the bill may not be in dollars. Heck, the Whamps can seduce a couple of electricians or stagehands to rig this all up simple.

Offline vincentric

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2022, 03:53:56 AM »
The Murphyonic Fiels is a plot device used make the lives of Mortal wizards(including and especially Harry) have more difficult lives. Mainly it restricts their use of tech and gives their enemies an advantage.

Because they aren't "mortal practitioners" Molly can a use cell phone where she couldn't before becoming the Lady, Nic and his cronies can use electronic communication, the Redcap could chase down the Water Beetle on a jet-ski and Vadderung can run a multinational security  corporation. Think of how Harry's life as WK would be improved with a company car outfitted as well as the presidential limo. Every wizard should have the Swartalves on speed dial for an air-conditioned and lighted home remodel.

Overanalyzing any book or movie involving magic or supertech will reveal inconsistencies. Just suspend your belief for the world background. Most authors and screenwriters don't think like pro gamers when they set up their worlds.   

Offline g33k

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2022, 03:43:44 PM »
  Selling? No way. The wizard weakens himself.
  I envision a wizard who's almost entirely self-centered; maybe not using "black magic" but one who doesn't much care about other wizards, or "weakening" them.  They could easily have built in personal safeguards, so they specifically weren't weakened... embroider the armbands with gold thread for the runes, and use the same gold thread in one of their own offensive focus-items, enchanted to bypass the defenses of the arm-bands.

Also, smart wizards know how to bypass those defenses.  Someone shows up sporting the armbands you made?  Don't even try to cast a spell on THEM, just forzare them a faceful of keys, or One Woman Rave them into utter confusion then gut-stab them, or whatever...  ;-)

... Whamp subverted? seems unlikely ...
Seems entirely-likely to me, but YMMV.

Consider, though:   Inari Raith -- with zero predatory experience -- almost got Harry.  He feels that Whamps are an entirely-credible threat to him, and to wizards in general.  Margaret LeFay (no pushover!) was seduced by one.  The Blackstaff apparently feels an especially-deep hatred towards them, presumably having suffered some grievous wrong.

... Stolen? I gotta think stuff like that is held VERY securely, but this one could be ...
While I do think that Whamps could be an incredibly-potent uber-thief sort of security-penetrating expert, I was envisioning it in a more opportunistic fashion -- wizard is disabled?  Swipe their stuff!  Wizard in the field, but not fully "equipped" (wearing) all their gear?  Swipe it while their back is turned!  (I keep noticing Harry drop items in his duster pockets, and thinking "dude, a regular pickpocket could probably take that from you, and a magically-graceful-and-subtle one with a century of practice... you'd never spot it!")

I think the Deeps were likely simple mortal work ... Heck, the Whamps can seduce a couple of electricians or stagehands to rig this all up simple.
Harry was impressed at the system's durability in the face of his magic (I don't think "a couple of electricians or stagehands" could have produced that).  Molly's (Svartalven-built) place was, IIRC, the only other place we've seen that had "Harry-resistant" lighting, the kind that is noted in the text & called-out as "this is impressive and unusual."

... The Whamps are not envisioning magical duels happening much ...
I expect the Whamps were planning for all manner of "unlikely" contingencies.  I expect they considered White Council wizards as among the more-likely of those contingencies.

... Harry is not blowing up streetlamps and making cars freeze in place every time he walks near one ... Where Harry LIVED, even continual low level emissions can toast stuff. But he didn't blow up his office.  Or the others in the building...
Yeah, Harry can walk by ordinary electrical stuff without hexing it; electronic stuff, not so much.  He can't even carry a credit-card without wiping the mag-stripe on it.  But he could walk into the precinct and not blow the lights; just not approach any computers.

My point, though, isn't the "ordinary circumstances."

Harry was afraid for his life; even worse, for his brother's life, and Murphy's (in the later incident, Carlos'; and hugely angry about the murdered women).  And he was letting loose with his Kaboom magic.  This is gonna blow the tech.

Your average "electrician or stagehand" simply cannot build a system that will survive being in the same area with an angry, magic-flinging Harry Dresden.



Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2022, 05:26:58 PM »
Swartalves are experts at working underground, The Deeps would be a snap. They wouldn’t have to worry about a single point of access and egress.

Offline Ed0517

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2022, 12:15:47 AM »
  I envision a wizard who's almost entirely self-centered; maybe not using "black magic" but one who doesn't much care about other wizards, or "weakening" them.  They could easily have built in personal safeguards, so they specifically weren't weakened... embroider the armbands with gold thread for the runes, and use the same gold thread in one of their own offensive focus-items, enchanted to bypass the defenses of the arm-bands.

Also, smart wizards know how to bypass those defenses.   
still short sighted. Plus what if TWO wizards sell stuff? One sells a mail shirt, so to speak "I'll target the head" but Wizard B sells a helmet "I'll target the torso" - but the same Whamp buys BOTH....

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(on subverted)
 
Seems entirely-likely to me, but YMMV.

Consider, though:   Inari Raith -- with zero predatory experience -- almost got Harry.  He feels that Whamps are an entirely-credible threat to him, and to wizards in general.  Margaret LeFay (no pushover!) was seduced by one.  The Blackstaff apparently feels an especially-deep hatred towards them, presumably having suffered some grievous wrong.

Yes, but I think they overwhelm the wizard, they cloud their minds with lust... and a clouded mind is not likely to do their best fabricating work. Pet wizard? could be. But a top notch? It's like where Harry says if Mab presses him too much he will obey - but she will get a obedient, but mediocre Knight, the one she does NOT want. Harry, given a little latitude and looser bond, is a finer weapon. 

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While I do think that Whamps could be an incredibly-potent uber-thief sort of security-penetrating expert, I was envisioning it in a more opportunistic fashion -- wizard is disabled?  Swipe their stuff!  Wizard in the field, but not fully "equipped" (wearing) all their gear?  Swipe it while their back is turned!  (I keep noticing Harry drop items in his duster pockets, and thinking "dude, a regular pickpocket could probably take that from you, and a magically-graceful-and-subtle one with a century of practice... you'd never spot it!")
I think that stuff is going to be massively spell-warded.

OK, Harry would never think of this.  I doubt most wizards would. (I think Luccio would). But.... biometrics? The Warden swords are only special for THAT warden, right?  Best reason Harry could not simply pick up, say, Wild Bill's at the battle. So it seems Luccio can restrict use somewhat - the sword in other hands is simply a sword. Picture... in my blasting rod, I drill a *TINY* hole in the hilt before I enchant it. Slip in a single hair, fill with epoxy, then a plug of sawdust mixed with epoxy, so it appears to be plain wood (or use a copper butt cap).  Enchant it so it doesn't shoot unless it finds a similar hair within a foot. Doesn't see one,  it backfires and blows up. Which also torches the hair.


 
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Harry was impressed at the system's durability in the face of his magic (I don't think "a couple of electricians or stagehands" could have produced that).  Molly's (Svartalven-built) place was, IIRC, the only other place we've seen that had "Harry-resistant" lighting, the kind that is noted in the text & called-out as "this is impressive and unusual."

Harry's been on TV. Seen a Broadway show's effects? those guys are not Eugene the Electrician on Main Street.  I bet Tempest shielding could work great too (computer security anti-wiretap stuff, to prevent stuff leaking out. Should keep outside stuff out too) Again, like biometrics, Harry likely never heard of Tempest stuff. 

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I expect the Whamps were planning for all manner of "unlikely" contingencies.  I expect they considered White Council wizards as among the more-likely of those contingencies.
occasional short-term ones, usually at a distance from the walls.


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Yeah, Harry can walk by ordinary electrical stuff without hexing it; electronic stuff, not so much.  He can't even carry a credit-card without wiping the mag-stripe on it.  But he could walk into the precinct and not blow the lights; just not approach any computers.

My point, though, isn't the "ordinary circumstances."

Harry was afraid for his life; even worse, for his brother's life, and Murphy's (in the later incident, Carlos'; and hugely angry about the murdered women).  And he was letting loose with his Kaboom magic.  This is gonna blow the tech.

Your average "electrician or stagehand" simply cannot build a system that will survive being in the same area with an angry, magic-flinging Harry Dresden.

And lighting is much more electrical than electronic. So more resistant.

Actually, a dueling Dresden may be MORE safe for the electrical stuff. His Murphyonic field may be like a sprinkler head misting the area, but a dueling Harry is using a nozzle (Luccio uses a water jet cutting tool with her fire lance). Harry is focusing his magic.

Again, pro stagehands or TV guys are a lot ahead of the typical guy. Chicago may not be NYC, but it isn't Peoria either.

Offline Ed0517

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2022, 12:18:25 AM »
Swartalves are experts at working underground, The Deeps would be a snap. They wouldn’t have to worry about a single point of access and egress.

Oh, I think Svaltalves could do it great. But what do they want for a fee? The bill may not be payable in cash. And do the Whamps trust the Svaltalves to not build in back door access for themselves? I think the Svartalves are likely among the most trustworthy supernaturals, but...

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2022, 10:57:16 AM »
The White Court can pay in lapdances, and the Swartalves are the most reliable of repeat customers.

Offline Ed0517

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2022, 08:29:59 PM »
The Svaltalfs may want Favors, not Euros. Better to use a pro stagehand or techie you can give Benjamins than someone who holds a Favor on you 

Offline g33k

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2022, 12:52:15 AM »
... Better to use a pro stagehand or techie you can give Benjamins than someone who holds a Favor on you 
I don't think they know how to do that (the pro stagehands & techies).

Tempest shielding won't work (I have used, & tech-supported SunMicro & other Tempest gear, years back).  It protects against an EM-pulse & similar... but magic ISN'T an EM-pulse (if it were, it wouldn't be blocked by a magic circle).  So a hex will slice right through Tempest gear (just the same as OTS consumer gear).

Unless the supernatural community has studied the details of Wizard-Hex vs. Tech (and how to Harden it), I don't think the knowledge exists.  Maybe (maybe!) the Whamps have that info; maybe they made a concerted effort to study it over the past century, when the rise of electricity (and Wizards' effects on tech) came into focus.  Maybe they have sets of schematics and plans, and can tell their mundane subcontractors, "I know this circuit is absurdly over-engineered, and grounded about 1000x more than is needed.  Shut up, and do it this way anyhow.  You know your profit-margin on this job is already more than double your usual, and I could always go to another contractor if you don't care to build it as specified."

But I doubt it.

I think the Svartalves have a corner on the market for this info.  They are the elves of tech.
(It wouldn't surprise me if they had a secret program to sabotage any non-Svartelven efforts that direction)

Offline g33k

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2022, 01:56:59 AM »
... Better to use a pro stagehand or techie you can give Benjamins than someone who holds a Favor on you

If you're a whamp, better still to pay in Hot Sex.  Addict the key personnel, place controls in their minds, make them loyal to you.  In fact, get the same controls on every worker you let into your Sekrit Hide0ut.  Sure:  pay in cash for the sake of "legal, above-board" appearances...

But ensure that everyone is doing their honest-to-God best, because you are their honest-to-god.

Offline Ed0517

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2022, 05:45:31 AM »
If you're a whamp, better still to pay in Hot Sex.  Addict the key personnel, place controls in their minds, make them loyal to you.  In fact, get the same controls on every worker you let into your Sekrit Hide0ut.  Sure:  pay in cash for the sake of "legal, above-board" appearances...

But ensure that everyone is doing their honest-to-God best, because you are their honest-to-god.

No. No Whamp powers. If that sort of thing is ever detected, the blocks, etc. then people KNOW something is up. Simple cash can make it look like rich hedonists making their own Playboy Grotto. Don't use powers where just cash will work.

Offline g33k

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2022, 05:25:43 PM »
No. No Whamp powers. If that sort of thing is ever detected, the blocks, etc. then people KNOW something is up. Simple cash can make it look like rich hedonists making their own Playboy Grotto. Don't use powers where just cash will work.
Non-supernaturals will never detect the whamp'ery (at most, it will seem like someone is obsessed with the controlling Whamp).  DO pay cash, so it has all the signs & trappings of a mundane transaction; but with the Whamp'ery, the loyal electrician will always cover for their Whamp master, accept the blame, go "My bad, yes I'll pay the late taxes" (or go to jail, or whatever).

Supernaturals already know that the Whamps (like all other powers) like their privacy, and keep their secrets; they already know the Whamps are not just "rich hedonists."  Supernaturals expect other supernaturals to use their powers to preserve their privacy.