Author Topic: Mab is cleaning up the White Court  (Read 7973 times)

Offline Aiotanga

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Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« on: August 08, 2022, 08:22:53 AM »
Nemfection is rife within the White Court. Papa Raith has an Outsider protection spell on him. Vittorio Malvora bound himself to one. Justine was nemfected with access to the highest of the court. Knowing this state of affairs, Mab has set Harry on a collision course to clear the court. Whether or not he marries Lara, there will be a red wedding.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2022, 09:46:28 PM »
Harry’s already housecleaned much of the White Court.

My theory is that the White Court are due a major change, they can be openly what they are and be accepted by humanity, because of the population increase there are enough humans willing to be preyed upon that they do not need unwilling victims, and humans no longer need them as a predator to force development of society and technology as the White Court could easily be wiped out by humanity if government and its weapons were deployed against them.

Those left after Harry’s various interventions are the survivors ca-ablenof accepting such change.

Offline g33k

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2022, 04:13:19 AM »
Nemfection is rife within the White Court...
Harry’s already housecleaned much of the White Court...

What if it's specifically the Raiths' problem, not Whamp'dom in general?

And "housecleaning" Papa&Justine isn't (not nearly!) good enough?  Madrigal's jinn ("inherited" from his father!) was supposedly a "cutoff," perhaps because he knew about the Outsiders, but wasn't sufficiently devoted to the Outsider cause...?

I'm definitely in the camp that thinks Mab is aiming her Starborn Knight at the Whamps.  I just don't know the scope of her plan... a few more individuals, even just one?  Much of Raith?  All the Whamps, everywhere?  Each of these is demonstrably a "plausible" target.

But honestly, it's all among the most-speculative of speculations!

Here's another WAG -- not invested in it, but... well... there's no counter-proof, AFAIK...

Taking the theory of "Whamps are corrupted Etruscan Erusii, genuine Love-spirits (instead of Lust)" ...
What if Mab has set Harry up to:
 (1) sequester Thomas (in the throes of True Love) behind the most-massive mortal Wards in existence;
 (2) wipe out most/all other (corrupted) Whamps;
 (3) pay weregild to the Svartalves;
 (4) bring Thomas back to re-found the True Erus Line (which had originally been one of the pillars of anti-Outsider power (True Love being a Really Big Deal in the Dresden'verse))

Just a thought...  ;)
I think it's a bit too rainbows-and-sparkles for Jim.
But honestly, there's as much "evidence" for this as there is for many other WAGs!

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2022, 06:58:34 AM »
Nemesis can only infect up to 13 individuals at a time and probably less with stronger hosts, Nemesis tends to target power structures near but not at the top therefore Justine was likely the only target in the WC. Cowl got to the others.

Offline g33k

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2022, 06:23:43 PM »
Nemesis can only infect up to 13 individuals at a time
Care to support this?  I think "how many simultaneous Nemfections" is an ongoing topic of discussion & debate.  I don't think anyone has cited canon, so what's the basis of your WAG?
(Mind you, "13" is as good a number as any, I think... and better than most!)

... and probably less with stronger hosts ...
I think it may be that the "stronger hosts" simply cannot be reliably held, over the long term.
(Maeve, in the end, was weak.  She resented Mab, she resented the limits the LadyMantle placed upon her (specially, I suspect, the "do not lie" & the "chastity/virginity" clauses)... she resented Winter itself.

... Justine was likely the only target in the WC.  Cowl got to the others.
Dunno about that:  Cowl seems to have been "using" Vittorio, but Vito was possessed by an Outsider.  I think the evidence is, the Outsiders "got to" him...  I strongly suggest that "Outsider possession" overrides any prior loyalty or advantage Vito saw in Cowl.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2022, 08:16:10 PM »
The question always comes down to why. Why make the White Court weaker if you are looking for strong allies? The attacks on the White Court almost certainly have to be about the Oblivion War.  If no mortal remembers the Outsiders then no mortal can summon them, effectively locking them out of reality.  This aligns with Mab's goals.

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2022, 09:00:34 PM »
The likelihood was that Lord Raith was working with the Outsiders, and Lara and Thomas working against them in the Oblivion War. Control of the White Court therefore had a much wider impact.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2022, 09:32:32 PM »
Given the way Butcher has constructed his Universe then in the end all Vampires would have to die assuming that they are immortal. Along with pretty much any entity that could show a mortal how to summon an Outsider or whatever the Oblivion War is trying to keep out.
The likelihood was that Lord Raith was working with the Outsiders, and Lara and Thomas working against them in the Oblivion War. Control of the White Court therefore had a much wider impact.
We agree, although Papa Raith didn't strike me as a team player.

Offline g33k

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2022, 10:30:40 PM »
The question always comes down to why. Why make the White Court weaker if you are looking for strong allies?

Why would Mab make the White Court weaker?

Think of it like a major surgery: it will "weaken" you in the short term, but generally allows for you to heal to a stronger state than before the surgery.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2022, 12:09:32 AM »
Given the way Butcher has constructed his Universe then in the end all Vampires would have to die assuming that they are immortal. Along with pretty much any entity that could show a mortal how to summon an Outsider or whatever the Oblivion War is trying to keep out.We agree, although Papa Raith didn't strike me as a team player.

His children were acting against him in secret, and he probably told no one about the protection granted to him by The Outsiders, Lara probably suspected, making her ripe for approach, perhaps by one of the former Archives. All she would have to do is to be aware of the Archives role and to write “My father,  Lord Raith is in contact with The Outsiders, Lara” and then destroy it. This would suggests Lara’s rebellion may have been brewing for some time.

Lord Raith may have been The Outsiders backstop, an immortal with the knowledge to summon them protected from harm by their power. Even if all other Outsider agents are eliminated then he survives, spreading the knowledge anew.  That makes Raith the antithesis of the Archive.

Offline Ed0517

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2022, 05:35:45 AM »
Mab may not be anti-Raith as such, but may be anti-Papa and thinks she can work with Lara. If Lara then arranges events that weaken the other Houses within the Court, it strengthens Lara's hold.  She has her Knight in a position of power within the Court, where he can pass along info (but - what happens if his loyalties are divided between his Queen and his wife?) 

Harry has shown some ability at geomancy - could he repair the Deeps for Lara? Even crude walls and a ceiling could later be refined like the polished tunnel walls by human contractors. Though Harry is likely more crush rock than carve rock.

Did we ever conform Papa's shield is Outsider-powered? It's a good possibility, maybe probability, but even the likes of the Forest People have an immunity, so maybe someone else can bestow it too. 

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2022, 08:55:14 AM »
River Shoulders ground magic, Raith just shrugs it off, the former is a magic user the latter isn’t.

Offline g33k

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2022, 08:58:00 PM »
... Did we ever conform Papa's shield is Outsider-powered? It's a good possibility, maybe probability ...
I *think* so.  I think Harry got an "Outsider-flavor" from his attempt to cast on Raith Pere.
... the likes of the Forest People have an immunity, so maybe someone else can bestow it too.
They aren't "immune" -- they simply understand the magic well enough to ground a spell and dissipate it.  Presumably enough power, or enough different spells cast simultaneously, could overwhelm them; or if they were unconscious, they couldn't do it.

Papa Raith just has an aura that sucks the magic away, whether or not he "does" anything.  I suspect Harry -- with the right approach -- could have Starborn'ed his way past that aura, if he had understood in the earlier books what he understands in the later books.


His children were acting against him in secret ...

He had largely controlled his daughters.  They weren't acting very much against him, because he could have had any secret out of them in a trice.  He had killed all his sons except Thomas, who only survived because:
  • he assiduously avoided Whamp Politics, building a power-base, or anything else that Papa could have construed as a threat
  • (I have a WAG that) Margaret may have hinted to Papa that she had set "special" protections on Thomas, and Papa was unwilling to risk it after she had blocked his ability to Feed his Hunger
In general, though, "acting against <X> in secret" is, I think, just the water Whamps swim in... always plotting, always being plotted-against; always conspiring, always being conspired-against.

... he probably told no one about the protection granted to him by The Outsiders, Lara probably suspected ...
Over the (many) years, I expect Raith had been hit with magic more than once, within sight of other Whamps (particularly his daughters (who seemed to act as personal bodyguards?)).  That he had some sort of protection seems unlikely to be a well-kept secret.  The details, though... I suspect he intentionally dropped multiple contradictory hints.  Make a maze of dead-end clues, swim in a school of red herrings.  Show up as having a unique & potent ability, that nobody understands.


... Lara probably suspected, making her ripe for approach, perhaps by one of the former Archives.  All she would have to do is to be aware of the Archives role and to write “My father,  Lord Raith is in contact with The Outsiders, Lara” and then destroy it ...

Lord Raith wasn't AFAIK any kind of "native" talent.  All his magic was cast by following written instructions.  The Archive already knows all the stuff in his library, Lara doesn't have to tell him.

My own WAG is that most of the Venatori cells in the Oblivion War don't know the Archive is their ultimate boss, nor the mechanism of the Archive in recording information.  It would paint too big a target on the Archive, for an Outsider attack.  As noted, Lara's will wasn't entirely her own.  Papa could have had any of Lara's secrets, and I suspect the Archives wouldn't have risked knowledge of their role & methods in such close proximity to a ruthless mindbender like Lord Raith.

Instead, I posit that the Archives give out "special books" -- heavily-enchanted journals, wrapped in spells of obfuscation & misdirection, with an absolutely tremendous KABOOM booby-trap at the core.  They tell their contacts that whatever is written in these journals, will also be written in a matching journal held by the "Oblivion Council."  This hides the fact that the Archive sees everything written, and creates a plausible mechanism for 1-way notices.

Offline g33k

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2022, 09:02:32 PM »
... Lord Raith may have been The Outsiders backstop, an immortal with the knowledge to summon them protected from harm by their power. Even if all other Outsider agents are eliminated then he survives, spreading the knowledge anew.  That makes Raith the antithesis of the Archive.

That's a fascinating WAG!

I rather like it ...

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Mab is cleaning up the White Court
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2022, 09:35:16 PM »
Thank you, the Dresdenverse exists in balance so a counterweight to the Archive existing does makes sense.

Lord Raith used a different ritual for powering the entropy curse, he most likely would only bother to commit the Summoning of Outsiders to memory. As a backstop he isn’t mortal and can’t summon himself where the summoner has to be a mortal, but he can teach the ritual to someone else. That way the Archive can’t “see” the stored information. Raith is a living book.