In defense of the WC

[Conspiracy Theorist]

All I'm saying is that their relationship makes favors redundant, be that friendship or work relationship. Remember Mab's offer of canceling the three favors in exchange for his service as a knight? Mab doesn't have to ask Harry for favors, she can order him to do what she wants, and in return she has a specific set of obligations towards him. Same goes for the other two queens.
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No Mab can only order Harry to the extent required by Winter law, it binds her as well as Harry. Mab could not order Harry to wear a hat there,  is no requirement to do so under Winter Law. Even the redcap does so voluntarily.

She could however order him to wear Winter livery, that would be part of Winter Law.

[Fcrate]

No difference there. Even if Mab was owed a favor, she could not order him to  go against Winter Law. No Winter creature can go against it, not even Harry, and he's just an attaché.

[morriswalters]

Fcrate is correct in this. The Queens can't do favors.  There is always a quid pro quo, a price to be paid for anything granted. So Harry incurred an obligation when he got the ring from Molly.  Molly has to collect for that obligation. She has no choice in the matter and neither does Harry. That particular coin is stored in her change purse for a time of need.

How that plays out in the plot is anyone's guess. Winter Law is meaningless given that we don't know what Winter Law is, except for the things already revealed.

[g33k]

All I'm saying is that their relationship makes favors redundant, be that friendship or work relationship. Remember Mab's offer of canceling the three favors in exchange for his service as a knight? Mab doesn't have to ask Harry for favors, she can order him to do what she wants, and in return she has a specific set of obligations towards him. Same goes for the other two queens.

"Favors" aren't at all redundant; they seem to be something like currency among the Fae.  And they are bound by faerie Law.

A faerie who does a "favor" is owed a favor in return (the other party is in debt); the faerie who holds a debt is, evidently, obligated to collect that debt (Molly warns Harry about this, before creating the doppelganger-glamour).

But I think the "three favors" between Harry & Mab aren't exactly replaced by the WK Mantle.  The Mantle is wholly a thing of Winter Law, but Mab's "favors" might have been anything.  Now she is limited to the legalities of the Winterfae, the roles of Queen and Knight.  There are a tremendous number of nuances and loopholes in those limitations, but Harry is (gradually) finding his way through them.  I think it entirely unlikely Mab would have done very much (if anything) NOT in accord with Winter Law, even with a wide-open "favor" to request; but I think she could have, and that (by virtue of filtering through a mortal) wouldn't have been a violation of Winter Law.

[Mira]

  I think in Harry's case, Mab did keep moving the goal posts a bit to reach her own goal of having him as her Knight.  It is a perfect lesson in why you shouldn't bargain with the Fae..  Harry would do as asked thinking favor two or favor three were wiped off the slate only to have Mab said the favor wasn't because of a detail or two..

[g33k]

I think in Harry's case, Mab did keep moving the goal posts a bit to reach her own goal of having him as her Knight.  It is a perfect lesson in why you shouldn't bargain with the Fae..  Harry would do as asked thinking favor two or favor three were wiped off the slate only to have Mab said the favor wasn't because of a detail or two.. 

As Mab had suspected and predicted, she didn't need to have any "favors" from Harry to get him to take the WK Mantle.

She was just using those favors to test (and begin training) her Knight-to-be.

In then end, Harry summoned Mab, and asked to become her Knight.

Much like Marcone's prediction that he would never need to kill Harry, that Harry's own predilections -- for unbending defiance to forces greater than he, disrespecting them to their faces and foolishly fighting to the death -- would get him killed; Mab bet the subtler bet:  that before they managed to kill him, he would be faced with forces not even his own foolishness could think he could conquer... and he would realize he needed the Mantle she offered.  Mab won the bet (and so did Marcone, for that matter; in the same book!)

[Ed0517]

(Dresden Files) (p. 155). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. My statement isn't about what Molly will do, it's a statement about what Molly could do if she chose to.  And Winter Law would keep Harry from saying no.

If she chooses to ..... there's no Molly left. Only the Lady

[Ed0517]

All I'm saying is that their relationship makes favors redundant, be that friendship or work relationship. Remember Mab's offer of canceling the three favors in exchange for his service as a knight? Mab doesn't have to ask Harry for favors, she can order him to do what she wants, and in return she has a specific set of obligations towards him. Same goes for the other two queens.

No, I think they can order Court business, but not other matters. For example, Molly is really busy, and realizes she forgot to get a present for Michael's birthday tomorrow, she asks Harry if he will do her a favor and pick up tickets for Cubs Opening Day.  That isn't the Lady. It's not Court business. It's a favor between friends.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

No, I think they can order Court business, but not other matters. For example, Molly is really busy, and realizes she forgot to get a present for Michael's birthday tomorrow, she asks Harry if he will do her a favor and pick up tickets for Cubs Opening Day.  That isn't the Lady. It's not Court business. It's a favor between friends.

Yes but under Winter Law that obligation still needs to be discharged.

[Tinfoil hat]

Yes but under Winter Law that obligation still needs to be discharged.

Yes but under Winter Law that obligation still needs to be discharged.

The way jim writes that favour will bite harry in the ass. Harry can the favour to molly the winter lady but she isnt always molly sometimes its just the winter lady. My take is that when she collects, molly wont want to do it but the mantle  will force her to. Jim writes with what will pain harry the most.
I can imagine him laughing as harry and molly cry about the favour

[Mira]

As Mab had suspected and predicted, she didn't need to have any "favors" from Harry to get him to take the WK Mantle.

She was just using those favors to test (and begin training) her Knight-to-be.

In then end, Harry summoned Mab, and asked to become her Knight.

Yes, she did need those favors, that is why she got them from Lea.  Yes, while Mab wanted and perhaps foresaw Harry as her Knight some day, she also knew that if she didn't hold him to the obligation of those favors, he'd have told her to go fish..  Harry wouldn't volunteer to submit to her requests otherwise.  Yes, in the end he did summon Mab and asked to become her Knight.  Not because she trained him, she did keep pushing him that he'd be her Knight some day, but had nothing to do with his decision.  It was simply the least bad option he had to saving his daughter. And let me remind you, he still tried to get out of it, that is why he asked Kincaid to kill him after Maggie was saved and had Molly wipe his memory because he thought that would hide from Mab that he was trying to get out of it once Maggie was safe.

[morriswalters]

No, I think they can order Court business, but not other matters. For example, Molly is really busy, and realizes she forgot to get a present for Michael's birthday tomorrow, she asks Harry if he will do her a favor and pick up tickets for Cubs Opening Day.  That isn't the Lady. It's not Court business. It's a favor between friends.

There is no Molly, there is only the Winter Lady.  There are no favors, there are only mutual obligations. This is the story that Butcher has wrote.  This comes up in the universe when they talk about the Accords. There is no spirit of the Accords, there is only what Mab has decreed.

In my personal canon this is what Butcher means by free will.  The ability to act, to pick up a loaf of bread on the way home as an act of friendship without incurring an obligation.  Something I believe the Fey can't do. There is always a price.

[g33k]

... there's no Molly left. Only the Lady

This is incorrect.  It may, eventually, become true.

But for now, there is still a fair bit of Molly in the Winter Lady:
"When I spent time with my parents, my brothers and sisters, I… remembered things.  Floods of memories that were attached to the emotions I felt when around my family."
&
Mab's advice to “Let the mortal die.  She will not be of use to you.”

Remember Bob telling Harry, "Welcome to the new Maeve, same as the old Maeve."  ?

That's not what happened.  Instead, we've got: 

He paused for a moment, staring intently at me with his one eye, his gaze penetrating.  When he finally spoke, he spoke slowly and quietly.

“You aren’t much like the last Lady, are you,” he said.

“No,” I replied.  “I am not.”

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Molly has found new depths to the Winter Lady Mantle, The Good People showed that in the overly aggressive gift giving.

The Mantle is changing Molly, but is Molly changing the Mantle? There are restrictions upon the Winter Lady but are there parts of the Mantle which have never been used by any of her predecessors?

There is also the thought that the Mantles may evolve as belief in them does. If so is Molly literally tapping into the belief generated by Frozen?

Molly also has a connection through her father to the White God that is clear from Proven Guilty, if the White God had a hand in making the Mantles, has he been subtly pushing Molly in this direction all along, not the Winter Lady Mab wanted, but the one she needed for this time? Why save Molly if her eventual fate is dire?

[Ed0517]

Yes but under Winter Law that obligation still needs to be discharged.

yes, but my point it is a favor not an order. The Lady orders the Knight, she owes him nothing, it is his job, Molly asks Harry a favor, she owes him one (or one he owed her is now paid up)