Author Topic: The castle and the island, theory  (Read 4273 times)

Offline BrainFireBob

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The castle and the island, theory
« on: August 01, 2022, 10:01:07 PM »
Theory: The castle was Merlin's, and it is a fortress not because he needed a paranoid bolthole, but to have a shortcut to the island, either direct or opening on the same location in the Nevernever.

The spirit intended to run the castle is Alfred's counterpart

Offline Mira

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Re: The castle and the island, theory
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2022, 10:02:00 PM »
Theory: The castle was Merlin's, and it is a fortress not because he needed a paranoid bolthole, but to have a shortcut to the island, either direct or opening on the same location in the Nevernever.

The spirit intended to run the castle is Alfred's counterpart

I like it! ;D

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: The castle and the island, theory
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2022, 01:41:01 AM »
WOJ says it isn’t Camelot, and should not be congruent to Demonreach, it is not a prison, it is currently housing refugees.

There is a big difference between a fortress and a prison.

Offline Mira

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Re: The castle and the island, theory
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2022, 02:58:21 AM »
WOJ says it isn’t Camelot, and should not be congruent to Demonreach, it is not a prison, it is currently housing refugees.

There is a big difference between a fortress and a prison.

King Arthur lived in Camelot, Merlin was around, but that doesn't mean he lived there.  Or it could have been Arthur's castle and Merlin put the wards in..

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: The castle and the island, theory
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2022, 12:00:39 PM »
I rather think it may be Hermitage Castle from Wikipedia

Hermitage Castle, home of Robin Redcap
The redcap familiar of Lord William de Soulis, called "Robin Redcap", is said to have wrought much harm and ruin in the lands of his master's dwelling, Hermitage Castle. Ultimately, William was (according to legend) taken to the Ninestane Rig, a stone circle near the castle, then wrapped in lead and boiled to death.[9] In reality, William de Soulis was imprisoned in Dumbarton Castle and died there, following his confessed complicity in the conspiracy against Robert the Bruce in 1320.

Sir Walter Scott in Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border records a ballad written by John Leyden entitled "Lord Soulis" in which Redcap has granted his master safety against weapons and lives in a chest secured by three strong padlocks.[10] Scott states that the Redcap is a class of spirits that haunts old castles, and that every ruined tower in the south of Scotland was supposed to have one of these spirits residing within.

Sir Walter Scott appears to have influenced Butcher especially Mistrelay of the Scottish Border (Tam Lin etc) deSoulis looks like a former Winter Knight.

Arthurian you are talkin 4th Century AD the Castle is likely to be not that old.

Online g33k

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Re: The castle and the island, theory
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2022, 10:02:49 PM »
Because the same runes are in the Castle and on the Island, I expect there is a direct Way between them.

That doesn't mean Harry can operate it (yet), nor even necessarily knows it exists (yet); but I think it's there...
« Last Edit: August 02, 2022, 10:30:40 PM by g33k »

Offline seanham

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Re: The castle and the island, theory
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2022, 10:42:49 PM »
Because the same runes are in the Castle and on the Island, I expect there is a direct Way between them.

They are not the same runes. It is in the same style/configuration but not the exact same. I don't have my books with me, but I think the books or WOJ says it is second-generation Merlin/Demonreach wards.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: The castle and the island, theory
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2022, 10:47:51 PM »
Joyous Gard.

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Re: The castle and the island, theory
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2022, 11:23:05 PM »
... Arthurian you are talkin 4th Century AD the Castle is likely to be not that old.

Historically speaking, that "big stone castle" doesn't exist in England at the time of Arthur & Merlin (all our pop-culture imagery is just wrong on this).  The stone castle is an import from the Norman conquest; best records say the "White Tower" (at the Tower of London) was the very 1st stone castle in Britain.

Romans built some of their forts with stone; but that's a different thing, and Harry's castle is decidedly NOT one of those!

That said, LOTS of Anglo-Saxon castles were "upgraded" in situ to stone from earlier wooden structures, so there's no reason a Merlin-era castle -- with all sorts of magical import -- couldn't have been re-built in stone after the Norman invasion (and as we know, Merlin laughed at White-Council style "Law of Time."  He could have come in with his enchantments far after the "Arthurian" era; in fact, that's clearly what he did(*)).

And since we don't know the precise origin of the castle, it may not even have come from Britain... or even Europe!


(*) Unless, of course, he didn't!  For example... what if it was built in the pre-Norman era by Merlin who simply led a team of masons & stonecutters & laborers & such from the High Medieval via Ways Through Time, to build it in some out-of-the-way location; then enchanted it (lots of runework, after all; lots of enchantments!) for an aura of "spooky & uncomfortable" and "tend to forget about the castle" &c.  The Citadel of Aleppo was a stone fortress contemporaneous with Merlin.  I'm unclear how-early Rashid was, or whether Rashid ever overlapped with one of Merlin's time-hopping excursions; but (hypothetcially) Rashid could have shown Merlin the middle-Eastern stone castles, and Merlin would have been all "I have got to get me one o' these!"

Online g33k

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Re: The castle and the island, theory
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2022, 11:59:25 PM »
Joyous Gard.

The one in France was c. 6th Century... its  ruins  are still in place (and are very VERY ruined, unsuitable for habitation).

The one in England may not even have existed; but certainly is much later.  Per Wikipedia, Malory proposed either Bamburgh or Alnwick castles as the site of Joyous Gard.  Bamburgh is credible (being known as a fortified site back to the Arthurian era), but Alnwick likely is not, as records show it being first constructed by the Normans, with no prior fortifications known at the site.

But remember -- Malory's Morte D'Arthur is 15th C (it's where we get much of our late-medieval faux-Arthurian imagery).  It's based largely on the Matter of Britain (multiple authors, multiple dates, mostly 12th-13th centuries; mostly not-very-historical) & upon the Vulgate Cycle (13thC French).

Online g33k

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Re: The castle and the island, theory
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2022, 12:05:19 AM »
... I don't have my books with me, but I think the books or WOJ says it is second-generation Merlin/Demonreach wards.

Hmmm.  I don't think I recall this.
If you could recall the original citation, I'd be very grateful!

Offline morriswalters

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Re: The castle and the island, theory
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2022, 02:06:23 AM »
The one in France was c. 6th Century... its  ruins  are still in place (and are very VERY ruined, unsuitable for habitation).

The one in England may not even have existed; but certainly is much later.  Per Wikipedia, Malory proposed either Bamburgh or Alnwick castles as the site of Joyous Gard.  Bamburgh is credible (being known as a fortified site back to the Arthurian era), but Alnwick likely is not, as records show it being first constructed by the Normans, with no prior fortifications known at the site.

But remember -- Malory's Morte D'Arthur is 15th C (it's where we get much of our late-medieval faux-Arthurian imagery).  It's based largely on the Matter of Britain (multiple authors, multiple dates, mostly 12th-13th centuries; mostly not-very-historical) & upon the Vulgate Cycle (13thC French)
I never let reality get in the way of a good story.  I'm also pretty sure most castles wouldn't fit on the average lot in Chicago no matter what their state of repair. But I don't insist and won't defend it.

Online g33k

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Re: The castle and the island, theory
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2022, 03:54:28 AM »
...  I'm also pretty sure most castles wouldn't fit on the average lot in Chicago no matter what their state of repair ...
I'm pretty sure the old Spunkelcrief boarding-house is on a larger-than-average lot!

But there is no way it's big enough for the castle, as-described.  The great hall by itself, with room enough for multiple major supernatural factions to each have their retinues on hand, plus a bit of room for each to have privacy, could likely have held the entire property.

Do we actually know, however, that Marcone didn't just buy out the rest of the city block (or however much of it he needed)?

Offline Basil

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Re: The castle and the island, theory
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2022, 06:41:08 AM »
Most castles were pretty small, certainly small enough to fit on a Chicago city block.  Of course, they could also be bigger.  The Tower is very big, as it was expanded repeatedly over a thousand years.  The castle in Edenborough is also much bigger than a city block.  These are on the much larger size; however.  Most castles are much smaller. 

Conwy Castle in Wales is a bit bigger than a city block, but not that much bigger.  I've seen many castles in Scotland and Wales that are about half or one third the size of Conwy

https://cadw.gov.wales/visit/places-to-visit/conwy-castle

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Re: The castle and the island, theory
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2022, 08:21:37 AM »
Most castles were pretty small, certainly small enough to fit on a Chicago city block ...

Yeah.  It's just a matter of... did Marcone buy the block (or a hefty chunk of it)?

Or did he only buy the one lot (and the Castle is Tardis-like (bigger inside than out  ::) )... i.e. Jim & the beta-readers messed up)?