Lara Raith marriage consummation

[g33k]

Virginity is not a requirement for a Lady's Mantle. Lily was not a virgin when she succeeded Aurora and Sarissa was in-line for both the Summer and Winter offices despite her long life and experiences. The Mantles enforce celibacy and then only in the strictest sense of actual intercourse it seems.

I don't think we actually know if it's a prerequisite, or only enforced after the fact.  Nor do we know if Lily or Sarissa were virgins.

Is it celibacy, or virginity?

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The Ladies can ride the Unicorns which is usually associated with virgins.

Harry did ride one in Battle Ground, but standing next to Thomas, Harry looks pretty virginal. As would most men.

The trinity is the Maid, Mother and Crone, and I think in this Jim has been influenced by Pratchett, and his witches, Magrat, Nanny Ogg and Granny Weatherwax (who I suspect influenced the character of Mother Winter).

Jim has made much of Molly’s ongoing virginity, it surely played a major part in why she rather than Justine or Murphy were chosen by the Mantle. Remember, inside the Circle the Mantle had limited choice,  but it did have a choice of candidates, and Justine and Murphy were not maids. It just so happens Molly was Mab’s back up, indicating Mab’s prolonged scheming in relation to her. Preserving her virginity was undoubtedly part of this.

In Proven Guilty Molly has a boyfriend, Nelson, a Harry lookalike, her powers are manifesting so her potential as a candidate comes across Mab’s radar. The Gatekeeper tells Harry to investigate Black Magic in Chicago we do not know at this point that the Gatekeeper is allied with Mab. Molly is abducted by Winters Phobophages and taken to Arctis Tor, Mab’s stronghold, rescued by Harry’s party, and faces the White Council, saved by Michael suddenly appearing, obviously due to Uriel’s influence’ but we don’t find out they are working together until Ghost Story) Molly is put under the care of Harry (her unassailable crush) and tightly chaperoned thereafter.

Mab, the Gatekeeper and Uriel appear to have been working together for some time to get a Winter Knight and Winter Lady suitable for the forthcoming travails. Both proved pivotal in Battle Ground, clearly a starter course to the BAT.

This is why I think you need to look at the earlier books with hindsight, the whole files were designed as a whole rather than developing book by book so we the reader through Harry’s POV are not given everything which is actually going on in an earlier book or story, relationships between characters are not clear, but are made clear later on. Now however, ther is less ‘later on’.

[morriswalters]

I think what you are saying is they do not use heirs to determine SUCCESSION. The LINEAGE is biological. Harry is Eb's lineage, Joe knows it, I expect Martha does, and I'd be shocked if Rashid and Langtry don't.  It does not mean he gets the Mc Coy Seat, if you will,  on the WC. Otherwise there would never be a debate on who gets the open seat, and a Christos is blocked.

Lara rules thru a puppet as it was the quickest, most bloodless method to gain the power. Now, if in a few years it comes to light that she HAS puppeted her father, Whamps may think of a coup. But they also wouled have to realize she had the power to overthrow her father. They may learn Thomas is far from the idiot he pretended, and has some small magical ability, and if she still has her scary AF Winter Knight consort? They saw the duel in Raith Deeps, and he had much less power then. They know about the Red court. If they find out who... they could decide he might not be a man to cross. Plus, wizards only live 4, 500 years. Whamps play the long game.

I think I used it correctly. The point of using prodigy to join two royal houses is to be able to join a line biologically to the line of succession, thus producing an heir. But you get the point.

This whole business of the Mantle needing a virgin is somewhat  silly.  Slate raped Lily. So whatever her status was as Lady it didn't take virginity to get there.

The unicorn is Mab's and Mab is not a virgin.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Consider how the Bloodline curse worked, whilst it would almost certainly would take Thomas, there was concern as to whether it would spread through to Lara and Thomas other half-sisters as it was so seriously overpowered. It could have taken out House Raith and a good part of the White Court. This is the peril of joining linages, and why blood has so much credence amongst the supernatural. A child by Harry gives the White Court a hostage against both Harry and Eb which the entire supernatural world is aware of. This is why consummation is likely to be insisted upon. The other Houses look forward to the birth of a little hostage, not consummating would undermine Lara politically internally. Externally Harry is effectively now seen as supernatural nuclear power (although he has been since he realised Demonreachs full potential) and a child creates a failsafe for them.

Basically Harry is going to have the entire White Court and the leaders of the Accorded Nations cheering him on on his wedding night. I hope Harry doesn’t suffer from performance anxiety.

In this age a child hostage is more important than the consumation.

[Mr. Mouse]

Didn't Jim say there'd be no more Dresden tykes? Not that he couldn't change his mind.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I believe so, but that doesn’t stop Harry from being pressurised to produce a sprog.

By both Mab and by Lara.

Frankly, he may find going into the Mirrorverse or the BAT a blessed relief.

I can see Harry taking steps to avoid this (image off Harry repeatedly punching himself in the groin whilst letting off his force rings and shouting “You traitor!’

Family is precious to Harry, but he could never have a child with someone he doesn’t love, but that is so alien to Mab, Lara might understand it but would not allow sentimentality to overcome business or politics.

I wouldn’t have put it past Mab to have some of Harry’s semen frozen from his recovery from the shooting.

It would be a very Winter thing to do.

[Arjan]

When at the end of proven guilty Harry asks about Molly’s virginity she says technically.

[BrainFireBob]

I don't think we actually know if it's a prerequisite, or only enforced after the fact.  Nor do we know if Lily or Sarissa were virgins.

Is it celibacy, or virginity?

Per Maeve's taunts, Lily was sexually assaulted by at least Slate for the enjoyment of Maeve's court

[Mira]

Per Maeve's taunts, Lily was sexually assaulted by at least Slate for the enjoyment of Maeve's court

In Lily's case perhaps one can consider virginity two ways, actual physical and emotional.  While
Lily may physically no longer be a virgin, in her mind she was very much an innocent.  What constitutes a virgin anyway?  The presence of a maidenhead? That can be broken without sex.

Molly said technically she was still a virgin, because though she never had engaged in intercourse, there are other ways to enjoy sex. So physically she was, but mentally, emotionally, she wasn't.

[Ed0517]

I think I used it correctly. The point of using prodigy to join two royal houses is to be able to join a line biologically to the line of succession, thus producing an heir. But you get the point.

...and then you used the word prodigy in place of the word progeny.... smh

lineage is lineage. Everyone has it. It is not line of succession. If Queen Elizabeth died, and Prince Philip survived, he would be part of Charles lineage. He would NOT be in the line of succession, he cannot become king. Also, lineage cannot change. Rules of succession CAN and do - England changed theirs 10 or 20 years ago, from male preferred primogeniture to absolute.

It does not have to be used. Molly is not in Mab's lineage. There is no blood there.  She is her apparent successor. She is Michael's lineage. I have never seen her suggested to be a KOTC. 

[Ed0517]

Are you sure Carlos couldn’t take up the Lady’s mantle? Virginity rather than gender seems to be the determining requirement there, and that is in short supply in Winter. Carlos could be the Winter Laddy. It’s about his luck with women.

Wouldn't it be funny as heck if he was passed the mantle - then the magic transformed his body to fit the role? He'd flip, and Harry and Bob would laugh their butts off (Bob, of course, only metaphorically)

[Ed0517]

The Ladies can ride the Unicorns which is usually associated with virgins.

That appears to have gotten into the myth rather late. Also, Chinese myths had rather ugly unicorns. Mab has an ugly one too.

Harry did ride one in Battle Ground, but standing next to Thomas, Harry looks pretty virginal. As would most men.

Except Carlos! [/quote]

The trinity is the Maid, Mother and Crone, and I think in this Jim has been influenced by Pratchett, and his witches, Magrat, Nanny Ogg and Granny Weatherwax (who I suspect influenced the character of Mother Winter).

does predate Prachett too though.

Jim has made much of Molly’s ongoing virginity, it surely played a major part in why she rather than Justine or Murphy were chosen by the Mantle. Remember, inside the Circle the Mantle had limited choice,  but it did have a choice of candidates, and Justine and Murphy were not maids. It just so happens Molly was Mab’s back up, indicating Mab’s prolonged scheming in relation to her. Preserving her virginity was undoubtedly part of this.

In Proven Guilty Molly has a boyfriend, Nelson, a Harry lookalike, her powers are manifesting so her potential as a candidate comes across Mab’s radar. The Gatekeeper tells Harry to investigate Black Magic in Chicago we do not know at this point that the Gatekeeper is allied with Mab. Molly is abducted by Winters Phobophages and taken to Arctis Tor, Mab’s stronghold, rescued by Harry’s party, and faces the White Council, saved by Michael suddenly appearing, obviously due to Uriel’s influence’ but we don’t find out they are working together until Ghost Story) Molly is put under the care of Harry (her unassailable crush) and tightly chaperoned thereafter.

Mab, the Gatekeeper and Uriel appear to have been working together for some time to get a Winter Knight and Winter Lady suitable for the forthcoming travails. Both proved pivotal in Battle Ground, clearly a starter course to the BAT.

Have NO idea if you are right, but you have done some job of making a framework to link these things, and I applaud a job well done! It might be wrong, but it seems on the face a plausible possibility.

[Arjan]

In Lily's case perhaps one can consider virginity two ways, actual physical and emotional.  While
Lily may physically no longer be a virgin, in her mind she was very much an innocent.  What constitutes a virgin anyway?  The presence of a maidenhead? That can be broken without sex.

Molly said technically she was still a virgin, because though she never had engaged in intercourse, there are other ways to enjoy sex. So physically she was, but mentally, emotionally, she wasn't.

Or maybe she was more than she thought. There was a reason she did not cross that line.

[Mira]

Or maybe she was more than she thought. There was a reason she did not cross that line.

Remember at the end of Proven Guilty, Harry warned her and stressed the importance of her remaining a virgin.  Now whether it was because she represented too much of a temptation for him, since she already had a super crush for lack of a better word on him, or because it was truly a rule for apprentices, not sure.. Or he had foresight that he was in denial about that she could become Winter Lady some day, so needed to remain a virgin. Now being a virgin upon assuming the mantle of Winter Lady may or may not be a prerequisite, but it is clear that once the mantle of Winter Lady is assumed, the Lady must remain so.  Thus we have a very frustrated Maeve living through the kinky sex she forces others to perform in front of her, or poor Carlos getting the crap kicked out of him by attempting to have sex with Molly.

[Arjan]

Remember at the end of Proven Guilty, Harry warned her and stressed the importance of her remaining a virgin.  Now whether it was because she represented too much of a temptation for him, since she already had a super crush for lack of a better word on him, or because it was truly a rule for apprentices, not sure.. Or he had foresight that he was in denial about that she could become Winter Lady some day, so needed to remain a virgin. Now being a virgin upon assuming the mantle of Winter Lady may or may not be a prerequisite, but it is clear that once the mantle of Winter Lady is assumed, the Lady must remain so.  Thus we have a very frustrated Maeve living through the kinky sex she forces others to perform in front of her, or poor Carlos getting the crap kicked out of him by attempting to have sex with Molly.

Sex is all about emotion and magic is too. Her catholic upbringing also brings some attitudes about sex that have to be handled. She also was a young adult which can be a turbulent period and she was a warlock which is also problematic emotional. She had to learn to handle her emotions. I tend to believe Harry when he told her that’s that stage it was just dangerous.