Lara Raith marriage consummation

[Conspiracy Theorist]

In Lily's case perhaps one can consider virginity two ways, actual physical and emotional.  While
Lily may physically no longer be a virgin, in her mind she was very much an innocent.  What constitutes a virgin anyway?  The presence of a maidenhead? That can be broken without sex.

Molly said technically she was still a virgin, because though she never had engaged in intercourse, there are other ways to enjoy sex. So physically she was, but mentally, emotionally, she wasn't.

Yes, Molly alluded to some knowledge of the practice of BDSM, Lilly may have been subjected to similar but involuntary advances from Lloyd Slate which did not involve a procreative element.

[morriswalters]

...and then you used the word prodigy in place of the word progeny.... smh

lineage is lineage. Everyone has it. It is not line of succession. If Queen Elizabeth died, and Prince Philip survived, he would be part of Charles lineage. He would NOT be in the line of succession, he cannot become king. Also, lineage cannot change. Rules of succession CAN and do - England changed theirs 10 or 20 years ago, from male preferred primogeniture to absolute.

It does not have to be used. Molly is not in Mab's lineage. There is no blood there.  She is her apparent successor. She is Michael's lineage. I have never seen her suggested to be a KOTC.

I apologize for not meeting your standards of language.  I'll keep it simple.  In the White Court you don't inherit a crown and it's certainly not how Lara came to control the Whites.  And in the Fey court the mantle determines what you are and the Mab chooses who wears the mantle. Given that there is no need for a child to cement two royal families together. There are no royal families.  This is Butcher satisfying some itch he hasn't established yet in the text. He wanted to hook up Lara and Harry. He has now done so.

@Mira
Virgin means exactly whatever Butcher intends it to mean.  Certainly  where Sarissa was concerned you can't believe she was celibate for 300 or so years while she fiddled around enjoying immortality? If you want to carry this absurdity out to the obvious conclusion then are you suggesting that most lesbians in the Dresdenverse are virgins because they've never had sexual intercourse with a man?

@Conspiracy Theorist
I will point out that Molly was 14 when Butcher establishes this particular point, all to show that he could insert a BDSM scene in the DF.

[Arjan]

It could have been part of the deal Sarissa had with her mother. But I do not think it was necessary. I think the mantle makes you a virgin.

[Mira]

Virgin means exactly whatever Butcher intends it to mean.  Certainly  where Sarissa was concerned you can't believe she was celibate for 300 or so years while she fiddled around enjoying immortality? If you want to carry this absurdity out to the obvious conclusion then are you suggesting that most lesbians in the Dresdenverse are virgins because they've never had sexual intercourse with a man?

Yes, in some circles that is it exactly, lesbians are considered virgins.. It goes along with the idea that if a woman's maiden head is broken she is no longer a virgin.. When it can become broken in a number of innocent ways, excluding intercourse with a man.  And for that matter, why couldn't Sarissa be celibate for three hundred years if she chose to be?  Molly saying she is technically is no different than what many teens of her age said and are saying, they can fool around sexually all they want, but as long as there is no actual intercourse, they are still virgins.
Molly was older than fourteen at the end of Proven Guilty, I believe she was more like sixteen, that is when Harry told her if she wanted to be an apprentice she had to remain a virgin.

[morriswalters]

I can't go down this rabbit whole any further but I'll finish with this. Only a man would write this foolishness.  How could Harry know?

[g33k]

When at the end of proven guilty Harry asks about Molly’s virginity she says technically.

Per Maeve's taunts, Lily was sexually assaulted by at least Slate for the enjoyment of Maeve's court

This tangent is getting into particularly ugly places.  Apologies to anyone for whom it's becoming a problem; and thanks to people who are being sensitive to the problem; and pleas to everyone to continue to be so!

Regarding that "technicality" -- I think this is exactly the kind of technicality that Winter Law embraces.  Molly is entirely "virginal" for purposes of the Lady's Mantle, however many "bases" she has run (that being the specific metaphor she used, IIRC).

I think it's very possible that Slate was subtly constrained (by Mab? -- who may well have seen a Mantle for Lily as a distant-but-possible contingency plan) to similarly "preserve" Lily's technical virginity.  Huge amounts of cruelty can be inflicted without crossing that specific line.

[g33k]

...and then you used the word prodigy in place of the word progeny .... smh

And ParanetOnline is  specifically  an international forum, with plenty of folk for whom English is not a native language.

And in these "glorious" modern days of speech-to-text, autocomplete, & autocorrupt, this may be an error of the *device* not the person.

The days of pointing out these sorts of errors as  anything  relevant or valid are long over.

smh, indeed.

[morriswalters]

I'll give him/her the point and say that I misspoke and meant progeny instead of prodigy.  I simplified it and took out all the big words to make sure my point was clear. As for the other, it's impact on me is minimal since being old and dull, I had to look up smh.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I can't go down this rabbit whole any further but I'll finish with this. Only a man would write this foolishness.  How could Harry know?

It is a well established fact Harry knows absolutely NOTHING about women.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

And ParanetOnline is  specifically  an international forum, with plenty of folk for whom English is not a native language.

Yes, there are a lot of American’s on it. Aluminium. Colour. Grey. Etc.

Plus the damned Spell checker.

[Fcrate]

Harry's instructions to Molly at the end of proven guilty were more specific to her than a general rule. He wasn't trying to keep her a virgin, he just wanted to stop her from having an orgasm (he forbade her to masturbate). I think he believed her volatile emotions would combine with her sensitivite powers to turn her into a warlock.
I believe the "virginity" clause of the Lady mantle wasn't something that was originally intended by Butcher in Summer Knight, thus Lily. He added it later to serve something in the plot. Maybe to keep Molly as a forbidden match for Harry.
This happens sometimes. I don't believe for a second that Butcher knows EXACTLY how everything is going to happen in his series, just the general outline. Everything else gets created along the way, with plot points moving him in different directions.

[Ed0517]

Yes, in some circles that is it exactly, lesbians are considered virgins..

reminded me of a passage in a humorous fantasy, The Inadequate Adept by Simon Hawke. An elf has just been saved by a dragon, swooping down, breathing fire at the ugly unicorns who do not like virgins chasing her. She is brought up to the castle turret before the wizard who ordered the rescue, with the prince standing by

W: "Why were the unicorns chasing you?"
B: "Obviously, she's a virgin."
E: "I am NOT a virgin!"
B: "The unicorns knew better. They would have smelled a man on you"
E: "I have never had a man on me, thank you very much!"
B: "Then what did you mean when you said you weren't a .....""Oh, I see"

oops... edit - "B:" was Prince Brian, cursed to be - no kidding, a werechamberpot. He was only human at full moon until the curse was lifted

[Mira]

reminded me of a passage in a humorous fantasy, The Inadequate Adept by Simon Hawke. An elf has just been saved by a dragon, swooping down, breathing fire at the ugly unicorns who do not like virgins chasing her. She is brought up to the castle turret before the wizard who ordered the rescue, with the prince standing by

W: "Why were the unicorns chasing you?"
B: "Obviously, she's a virgin."
E: "I am NOT a virgin!"
B: "The unicorns knew better. They would have smelled a man on you"
E: "I have never had a man on me, thank you very much!"
B: "Then what did you mean when you said you weren't a .....""Oh, I see"

Which proves the point that "virginity" isn't an easy thing to define..  How it is defined varies a lot depending on culture and religion.  I think a better avenue to pursue for the Winter Lady isn't her status as or not as a virgin, but that once she assumes the mantle it appears that she must be celibate.. It is a rule that the mantle apparently strictly enforces as both Molly and Carlos found out.  I believe it also was the source of Maeve's frustrations so much so, that even if she was never infected would eventually have led to madness.  Actually it makes sense in a way, a celibate Lady cannot take lovers nor give birth, either of which could possibly present a threat to the Queen.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Molly’s previous unrequited love for Harry made her an excellent candidate, she was prepared to wait for Harry. When she becomes Queen the wait is over.

[Snark Knight]

House Raith is led by female Whamps putting it at a disadvantage against the other houses, and leaving is vulnerable to take over by secondary lines like the cousins.

I'm not convinced Whamps subscribe to human notions of sexism, that having female leadership would be a disadvantage. The Malvora's were led by a woman until the coup attempt, and she was considered just as much of a threat to overthrow House Raith if Lord Raith's weakness became public as the Skavis kird was.  And the coup attempt killed not just the pair of them, but most of the second tier around them.

Lara is probably in more danger from other Raiths when the charade of her father being functional eventually fails than Raith overall is from any of the other houses. She's probably planning as much for that contingency as for external events in seeking the arranged marriage, whether it produces a child or not.