Author Topic: General Ramblings and Questions after re-listening to Battle Ground  (Read 7458 times)

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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So, I re-listened to the audio books of PT and BG while doing some hiking before the Summer temperatures exploded here (St. George, Utah which is at the Eastern end of the Mohave Desert) a few days ago.  I have to say I liked both books; especially BG, much more than when they came out two years ago.  I think because I already knew that PT didn't have a lot of actions scenes and I didn't have any expectations that I had the first time I read BG, it made a difference; though I still wouldn't rate either book or both together as being near the top of my best of Dresden Files list.

I'm wondering about the sign that Harry got Mac to nail up at the pub.  Talk about a Chekhov's Gun moment.  It looked like Mac might be forced to make a last stand against the Fomor and then we never saw him again.  I could be wrong, but I doubt Mac was with the crowd that followed Harry's Banner.  Perhaps once he nailed up the sign Mac was compelled to stay and defend that spot or perhaps his not quite mortal nature precluded him from coming under the influence of the Banner.  In any case, the sign and where it is now located will come into significance later, though I wonder when and in what way.

There has been some speculation about how long Thomas will remain imprisoned underneath Demon Reach, but I don't want to make guesses about that.  Prior to PT and BG there was some speculation that Thomas will one day take up Amoracchius; and I guess I could still see that happening, but there's a problem; actually two, that I don't see The Sword of Love helping to solve. 

I can envision a scenario where the new KotC saves Mr. Etri, his sister or perhaps both of them from some peril and that might balance the scales with Swartalves.  That, and an explanation that Thomas was compelled to attack Etri, it wasn't something he wanted to do.  Even if potential complications from that scenario get ironed out, how would that help Thomas with his need to feed?  The island can protect Thomas from his Hunger but what happens the moment he's released from captivity?  OK, let's say there's a solution to that problem, I don't see how taking up Amorachius would help Thomas with his Hunger and the demon behind it. 

Well wait a minute, maybe I can.  Removing the hunger demon from a White Court vampire would be fatal, but perhaps if Thomas took up Amorachius it would kill his inner demon; because love is poison to the White Court the Sword of Love should be equally poisonous, but protect the man who took up the holy sword.  Thomas would become a mortal human.  I suppose it could work, but that still doesn't do anything to get Justine back and free her from Nemesis.  I doubt that even Amorachius could help with that task.  That sword should be able to cut up Nemesis just fine; because when Michael was still a KotC Amorachius had no problem dealing with Outsiders, but unfortunately it would do the same thing to Justine, making the sword unusable.

Then again, we know one sword that appears to be capable of hurting Nemesis without harming Justine or her unborn child.  Fidelacchius seems made for the task and it's likely Nemesis wouldn't know a thing about its new abilities and limitations.  Nemesis would get a real surprise if Butters swung it at Justine.  One possible complication to Butters freeing Justine is he might be in more danger than usual.  If Butters didn't get sent a message from On High to help free Justine, if it was something Harry or Thomas asked Butters to do then Waldo might be at greater physical peril.  At least Harry believed that Michael was injured more often when Harry asked the Knight for his help rather than Michael's mission was Heaven sent.

The only other questions I have after BG are mostly issues that have already been widely discussed in other threads, like the possible long-term influence of Thorned Namshiel on Marcone.  It might take several books, but I suspect we will eventually see some sign that Marcone is changing for the worse.  There's also the question of Thorned Namshiel's feelings about Nicodemus.  Just because Marone would like to destroy Nicodemus that doesn't mean Thorned Namshiel thinks the same way.  I'm remembering the time Nicodemus called on Lasciel's shadow to paralyze Harry so Nic could recruit him.  There's no reason Thorned Namshiel shouldn't be able to do the same thing to Marcone.  That's not even a WAG, just an extreme thing that could happen if Marcone and TN's interests diverged from one another.     

When will Harry call upon Ethniu to do his bidding?  My guess is not for a long time.  One possible scenario would be when Harry has to deal with a kaiju, but that's just pure speculation without any real evidence to back it up.       

There are questions about Lara and the White Court, but some of those predate PT and BG and it appears we will be seeing a fair amount of her in the next novel, so that should be fun.  Of course, if the above scenario of Thomas taking up Amorachius and becoming a mortal human came true, Lara would not react well to that.  However, there's no guarantee that Thomas will be released from Demon Reach in the next book, so this could be a long-term issue.

Just when I think I'm finished there's always one more issue to cover.  I wonder what answer LTW will give Harry in one year, about what it means to be Starborn.  When Harry asked the Starborn question the first time, LTW essentially told Harry that he didn't have any other options than wait for a reply.  When LTW comes to tell Harry if he will answer his question, I'd like to see Harry start the conversation by telling LTW that if he can't or won't tell him what it really means to be Starborn, Harry has other sources who will give him the answers he's been seeking, and do so within the hour, because it's true.  Harry could ask Bonea about being Starborn; though if Harry didn't ask the right questions or ask them in the right way, he might not learn everything he really needs to know, but it would be a way of telling LTW; and the others who are in the know, that they can work with Harry or he can go his own way without them.  Mostly, I'm tired of waiting myself.  We've been waiting a long time for many different mysteries to be solved, I think it's time some of this jigsaw puzzle starts to get filled in a bit.   
« Last Edit: June 13, 2022, 02:47:09 AM by KurtinStGeorge »
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Offline Mira

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Re: General Ramblings and Questions after re-listening to Battle Ground
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2022, 03:56:15 AM »
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I'm wondering about the sign that Harry got Mac to nail up at the pub.  Talk about a Chekhov's Gun moment.  It looked like Mac might be forced to make a last stand against the Fomor and then we never saw him again.  I could be wrong, but I doubt Mac was with the crowd that followed Harry's Banner.  Perhaps once he nailed up the sign Mac was compelled to stay and defend that spot or perhaps his not quite mortal nature precluded him from coming under the influence of the Banner.  In any case, the sign and where it is now located will come into significance later, though I wonder when and in what way.

By "sign" do you mean the Placard? It was one of the Artifacts that Harry took from the vault and was the sign that was nailed up over Jesus when He was nailed to the Cross. Mac recognized what it was, and reluctantly signed his name and blood to protect those in his bar.  What made him uncomfortable I think was he renewed a commitment that he has renounced maybe a couple or more thousand years before.  I don't think that act was connected in any way to Harry's Banner.  Though what happened to the Placard is a dangling thread, or at least it isn't spelled out that Harry went back to the bar after the battle to pick it up, though I imagine he did.
Quote
There has been some speculation about how long Thomas will remain imprisoned underneath Demon Reach, but I don't want to make guesses about that.  Prior to PT and BG there was some speculation that Thomas will one day take up Amoracchius; and I guess I could still see that happening, but there's a problem; actually two, that I don't see The Sword of Love helping to solve.
Yeah, I don't think either the Sword of Lover or the Sword of Faith will cure Thomas.  My theory is Alfred has a way to separate the Hunger Demon from Thomas and throw it in a cell and free the now fully human Thomas.  I also think that He Who Walks Beside will cast Justine aside when he no longer needs her, what that does to her remains to be seen. Thomas however may still be forced to answer for his crime.
Quote
Just when I think I'm finished there's always one more issue to cover.  I wonder what answer LTW will give Harry in one year, about what it means to be Starborn.  When Harry asked the Starborn question the first time, LTW essentially told Harry that he didn't have any other options than wait for a reply.  When LTW comes to tell Harry if he will answer his question, I'd like to see Harry start the conversation by telling LTW that if he can't or won't tell him what it really means to be Starborn, Harry has other sources who will give him the answers he's been seeking, and do so within the hour, because it's true.  Harry could ask Bonea about being Starborn; though if Harry didn't ask the right questions or ask them in the right way, he might not learn everything he really needs to know, but it would be a way of telling LTW; and the others who are in the know, that they can work with Harry or he can go his own way without them.  Mostly, I'm tired of waiting myself.  We've been waiting a long time for many different mysteries to be solved, I think it's time some of this jigsaw puzzle starts to get filled in a bit.   

Unless she matures very quickly I don't see Bonea explaining to Harry what a star born is.. She is still confused about milk.  I hope LTW does come an explain what it means to Harry because I think the White Council's take is critical to Harry.  I don't think the meaning is equal for all star born.  I totally agree with you about the jigsaw puzzle bit and wish they were filled in or at least some of the dots are connected.  That is one of the reasons why I wish the new element of an engagement and marriage to Lara wasn't brought in.  I see it as a distraction, and at this point anyway do not see how it furthers the story along.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2022, 09:56:59 AM by Mira »

Offline g33k

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Re: General Ramblings and Questions after re-listening to Battle Ground
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2022, 05:18:29 AM »
...  That is one of the reasons why I wish the new element of an engagement and marriage to Lara was brought in.  I see it as a distraction, and at this point anyway do not see how it furthers the story along.
(n.b. I'm pretty sure you mean "wasn't brought in," and I'm answering that way...)

Lara can advance the story by giving Harry a Lara's-eye view of Thomas & his childhood, mama LaFey, etc.

She can potentially help him understand whamps/whampery -- and therefore Thomas --better than he does.

Even with Thomas offscreen, Harry/Thomas bonding & character-advancement can occur!

She might give him access to the Raith Library; it certainly had a version of the heart-explode spell (and Vadderung was pretty clear that it's meaningful that that same spell has crossed Harry's path multiple times, from multiple directions), and it may have interesting material on the early days (even the origins?) of the whamps.

But I think "Twelve Months" is really just another plotline wherein Jim torments Harry; the meaningful stuff will be what happens in the corners and around the edges.  (Like how, in Skin Game, the "meaningful stuff" is mostly at the end, where Harry gets a bunch of superweapons, and Butters gets promoted, and Bonea is born, etc; iirc, only the scene in the basement of the church (where Harry makes the call to Kincaid & then imposes so badly upon Molly (that we don't see until the end of Ghost Story!) and then makes his deal with Mab) also has that sort of "meaningful stuff."  The "main" plotline of SG?  Harry allies with hated-enemy Nicodemus to raid the Underworld?  Doesn't really advance anything "meaningful" except that the superweapons were there... which Harry only discovered at the end ...)

Offline Mira

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Re: General Ramblings and Questions after re-listening to Battle Ground
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2022, 10:00:16 AM »
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(n.b. I'm pretty sure you mean "wasn't brought in," and I'm answering that way...)
Yes, I did, it had been a long day... :-[  As to the rest of it, interesting perhaps, but. . .
Quote
  Doesn't really advance anything "meaningful" except that the superweapons were there... which Harry only discovered at the end ...)

Well, since the Artifacts were used in Battle Ground and Harry would have failed without using them, it was meaningful. 
« Last Edit: June 13, 2022, 02:19:12 PM by Mira »

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: General Ramblings and Questions after re-listening to Battle Ground
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2022, 06:27:19 PM »
The placard gave Harry peace of mind, a safe place to stash Murphy. Murphy had other ideas.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: General Ramblings and Questions after re-listening to Battle Ground
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2022, 07:02:12 PM »
Harry is going to time travel, at least goes common wisdom.  One scenario to free Thomas from the Swartelves is for him to go back in time as Harry does, along with Justine, and stay there. Maybe become a Knight in Medieval France

Offline Mira

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Re: General Ramblings and Questions after re-listening to Battle Ground
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2022, 07:51:47 PM »
The placard gave Harry peace of mind, a safe place to stash Murphy. Murphy had other ideas.

It also protected the bulk of the Paranet.. Yeah, Murphy had other ideas and abandoned her post to go and help Harry.  If she had lived and all those with in the bar had perished because she wasn't there to protect them, how would she have felt?

Offline Arjan

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Re: General Ramblings and Questions after re-listening to Battle Ground
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2022, 08:15:23 PM »
It also protected the bulk of the Paranet.. Yeah, Murphy had other ideas and abandoned her post to go and help Harry.  If she had lived and all those with in the bar had perished because she wasn't there to protect them, how would she have felt?
The placard was there. That was not the place where she could make a difference.
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Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: General Ramblings and Questions after re-listening to Battle Ground
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2022, 08:31:54 PM »
The placard was there. That was not the place where she could make a difference.

Harry should have known this, and perhaps subconsciously did.

Offline g33k

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Re: General Ramblings and Questions after re-listening to Battle Ground
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2022, 08:50:42 PM »
... Well, since the Artifacts were used in Battle Ground and Harry would have failed without using them, it was meaningful.
This was an end-of-book plot-twist -- "This isn't a treasury... it's an armory!."  Almost the entire "heist" plotline was about other things... wealth, greed, etc.  And of course the "spiritual" heaven/hell thing of a Fallen Angel in possession of the Holy Grail (which, it should be noted, was an outright win for Anduriel, however disastrously-Pyrrhic the victory was for Nicodemus Archleone).

But Harry's powerup could have been equally-advanced by the "heist" being run against (for example) a Church-run armory (an arm of the same group supporting the Knights, which holds the Coins they get, but also could have held the Superweapons); or even having Forthill just hand them over, etc (but of course that ain't much of a story!).  In many ways, Dresden doing a run against the Church could have been even better, furthering his isolation, his separation from his old life, & emphasizing how much he's a "lone wolf" ... but running with the monsters more than with humanity...

Offline g33k

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Re: General Ramblings and Questions after re-listening to Battle Ground
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2022, 08:52:17 PM »
Harry is going to time travel, at least goes common wisdom.  One scenario to free Thomas from the Swartelves is for him to go back in time as Harry does, along with Justine, and stay there. Maybe become a Knight in Medieval France

I've seen the theory that Harry goes back in time & becomes Merlin (the OG one).

If he goes back to medieval France, though... maybe he becomes Bob!!!
 

Offline g33k

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Re: General Ramblings and Questions after re-listening to Battle Ground
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2022, 09:35:52 PM »
Harry is going to time travel, at least goes common wisdom...
I'm pretty sure WoJ has it that each of the White Council's "Laws of Magic" is going to have a book in which Harry seriously breaks that law.

I think Dead Beat saw him break Law#5, "Thou Shalt Not Reach Beyond the Borders of Life" (although he got by on the "just an animal" technicality).

The other laws are:
1. "Thou Shalt Not Kill" (i.e. use magic to kill; guns & knives & guillotines & tactical nukes are A-OK)
2. "Thou Shalt Not Transform Others" (guessing he'll learn transformation from LTW)
3. "Thou Shalt Not Invade the Mind of Another" (see also, next entry)
4. "Thou Shalt Not Enthrall Another"  (Interesting that mind-magic gets TWO Laws, #3 & #4)
5. "Thou Shalt Not Swim Against the Currents of Time" (our topic du jour)
7. "Thou Shalt Not Open the Outer Gates" (gonna hafta start a whole 'nother thread on this'un!!!)

On the "time travel" book, my favorite theory is a two-part'er:

#1 - Cowl is Future!Harry.  He wasn't always.  The guy Kemmler recruited & taught was a nasty piece of work, much in line with the other Kemmlerites; and he got nastier on a diet of Vitamin-K.  But some time (not too long before the start of Dead Beat) Future!Harry took down Real!Cowl, and replaced him.  The guy Harry dueled at Bock Ordered Books was his future self.  Molly is Kumori, because (a) younger female sidekick Harry trusts, & (b) he needs the Winter Lady's immortality to use Mother Winter's Ways through time.

#2 - Future!Harry is going to go back and hit a BUNCH of his old Case Files, proving to have been the "puppetmaster" more than once... possibly even one of the founding members of the Black Council.  The time travel book with be a revisit / alternate POV of most of the series, casting a new spin & behind-the-scenes insight.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2022, 09:37:44 PM by g33k »

Offline morriswalters

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Re: General Ramblings and Questions after re-listening to Battle Ground
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2022, 10:15:58 PM »
I've seen the theory that Harry goes back in time & becomes Merlin (the OG one).

If he goes back to medieval France, though... maybe he becomes Bob!!!
It's the only place where Thomas could be safe from his enemies both within the White Court and out of it.  If he was cured he could live out his life in peace.  On time travel you will have to wait till the last book before the trilogy to find out.

Offline g33k

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Re: General Ramblings and Questions after re-listening to Battle Ground
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2022, 10:56:54 PM »
It's the only place where Thomas could be safe from his enemies both within the White Court and out of it.  If he was cured he could live out his life in peace ...
I think that if he were cured of his Hunger-Demon, he'd be safe(ish) living any time before his own birth.  No whamp could look there, nor would.

It'd be a challenge, though:  as a lifelong supernatural predator, he'll be *noticing* things others would not, and it'd be incredibly-hard to stand by and do nothing.
 

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: General Ramblings and Questions after re-listening to Battle Ground
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2022, 08:56:11 AM »
Lara can advance the story by giving Harry a Lara's-eye view of Thomas & his childhood, mama LaFey, etc.

She can potentially help him understand whamps/whampery -- and therefore Thomas --better than he does.

These and the other points you made about Lara giving Harry a different and perhaps more detailed perspective of the White Court make sense to me.

But I think "Twelve Months" is really just another plotline wherein Jim torments Harry; the meaningful stuff will be what happens in the corners and around the edges.  (Like how, in Skin Game, the "meaningful stuff" is mostly at the end, where Harry gets a bunch of superweapons, and Butters gets promoted, and Bonea is born, etc; iirc, only the scene in the basement of the church (where Harry makes the call to Kincaid & then imposes so badly upon Molly (that we don't see until the end of Ghost Story!) and then makes his deal with Mab) also has that sort of "meaningful stuff."  The "main" plotline of SG?  Harry allies with hated-enemy Nicodemus to raid the Underworld?  Doesn't really advance anything "meaningful" except that the superweapons were there... which Harry only discovered at the end ...)

However, this is what I really want to respond to.  Looking at some of the Dresden Files novels in the manner you describe looking at Skin Game,  I'm reminded of the TV series Babylon 5; which Jim has stated he was a fan of.  The first season of B5 probably had the most "one and done" or standalone stories, compared to the other four seasons of the show.  Within these standalone stories the viewer would often receive little tidbits of information that had significance to the overall story arc.  When re-watching the series even some of the weaker episodes can be made more enjoyable when you spot these "Signs and Portents" of future developments in the overall storyline.  Plus, there were call backs within B5.  Something that happened in the first season of the show and seemed to be finished; such as the episode about Babylon 4 or a one episode love interest of Londo Mollari, would be revisited two seasons later and turn out to be of great significance.

The problem; as I see it, what was pretty cool in a TV series that wrapped up in five seasons is starting to wear a little thin after over twenty years of Dresden Files novels.  Fool Moon was published at the beginning of 2001, and in that novel we learned that both of Harry's parents died "unnatural deaths."  About three and half years later Blood Rites was published and we learned how and who killed Harry's mother, but it's almost nineteen years since that story's release and we still don't know what happened to Malcom Dresden.

I don't have a solution to this issue.  Perhaps I can give a suggestion to anyone in the audience contemplating their own book series in which you want to plant hints or leave clues to future developments of the greater story arc.  Don't go for a twenty plus book series.  Trilogies can be good, but if you really feel the need to stretch out your story, maybe aim to finish in eight to twelve novels at most. 

Benedict Jacka wrapped up his Alex Verus story in twelve novels.  I don't think it was the perfect series or that it had the perfect ending, but overall it was pretty good.  It tied up most of its plot threads in a convincing manner.  More importantly, none of the mid to late novels feel in any way like filler.  As a reader, I could feel the series building up to an explosive ending.  Aim for that feeling if you can, and maybe one day you'll be a visiting guest author at DragonCon.

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

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