Lara and Harry sitting in a tree.......?

[morriswalters]

This thread has twisted reality in a way I didn't expect. Hats off to the posters.

Consider a couple of things.  First, no vampire child could have ever been a product of true love.  Think about it.  Second question I get that the Big Foot's boy can feed his vampire lover because of his reserves but how does she keep from getting burned if they have true love between them?

[Mira]

Another solution is hinted at in the short story, Something Borrowed. In that story, Bob says that Will marrying Jenny Greenteeth (disguised as Georgia) annuls Will's true love protection (and allow Jenny to enslave him). In his words:

“I mean, if he’s married to another, it can’t really be pure love. Jenny’s claim on him would prevent the kiss from lifting the spell.”

One could argue, based on this, that Harry marrying Lara would similarly annul his protection from Murphy. And conveniently, there's a wedding coming up. Now Jenny is a Sidhe not a Vamp, so it might not be valid to analogise these scenarios. But it is definitely suggestive.

But only if he has had sex with someone else since she died.  His protection from Susan lasted until he hooked up with Luccio.  Now granted Susan wasn't dead at the time of White Night, but Harry hadn't been with anyone else for a couple of years, and it burned the crap out of Lara's lips.  So would Murphy being dead make a difference? If not Lara cannot touch him till he hooks up with someone else.

[ApollonianAcolyte]

First, no vampire child could have ever been a product of true love.  Think about it.

How so?

Second question I get that the Big Foot's boy can feed his vampire lover because of his reserves but how does she keep from getting burned if they have true love between them?

This is an interesting question with no definitive answer. Connie and Irwin are highly atypical in a few ways:

• Irwin is a half-human scion, hence his huge reserves. It is possible his (partial) non-human nature annuls or mitigates Connie's true love allergy
• Connie never killed during her first feeding. Usually to complete their transition, a Whamp's first feeding must be fatal. But Irwin never died. So it is possible that Connie's Hunger isn't 'fully developed' and is thus less vulnerable to true love.
• Connie and Irwin appeared to be in love before their first sexual encounter. Usually that would kill the Hunger. But again, the act was never completed. It's possible this partial experience with true love 'inoculated' Connie's demon, so to speak, making it more immune to true love.

Or maybe they just don't actually love each other.

[ApollonianAcolyte]

But only if he has had sex with someone else since she died.    So would Murphy being dead make a difference? If not Lara cannot touch him till he hooks up with someone else.

I don't think that's true. Again, Bob's words were that marrying Jenny Greenteeth would annul Will's love protection even though Will was presumably completely faithful to Georgia and had no other sexual encounters. By the same logic, Harry being 'faithful' to Murphy should not prevent the wedding from annulling his true love protection. At least if the analogy is valid.

So would Murphy being dead make a difference? If not Lara cannot touch him till he hooks up with someone else.

Well, my logic is that Lara would not be able to touch him until after the wedding vows precisely because of the reasoning you present. But after the wedding vows, Harry's true love protection would be negated.

[Mira]

I don't think that's true

It is true.. Page 373 White Night, Harry and Lara kiss..

She pressed closer, parted my lips with her tongue, and I thought I was going to explode.when she suddenly let out a hiss and recoiled from me, a hand flying to her mouth--but not before I saw the blisters rising from the burned flesh around her lips.

Then on the next page 373 White Night;

Lara turned away from me, huddling in upon herself."Bloody hell," she said after a moment.  "I can't believeyou're stillprotected.  But it's old. . . My intelligence said Ms. Rodriguez hadn't left South America."
"She hasn't," I croaked.
"You mean. . ." She turned and blinked at me, astonishment on her face,  "Dresden. . .do you mean to say that the last time you had relations with a woman was nearly four yearsago?"

[morriswalters]

How so?

If they have true love they can't have sex for procreation.  It's an explicit contradiction. For a male it would be like making love to a toaster. What Butcher writes but doesn't state explicitly is for the human to have the protection the human must be monogamous to the person loved.  But if they are monogamous the human is like a hot element in a toaster, but if that isn't true, then they don't have true love. In practical terms you have a couple where the women is monogamous and the man is running around.  A White could eat the husband but not the wife.  I don't write this stuff I just try to understand what Butcher is selling.

[ApollonianAcolyte]

If they have true love they can't have sex for procreation.  It's an explicit contradiction. For a male it would be like making love to a toaster. What Butcher writes but doesn't state explicitly is for the human to have the protection the human must be monogamous to the person loved.  But if they are monogamous the human is like a hot element in a toaster, but if that isn't true, then they don't have true love. In practical terms you have a couple where the women is monogamous and the man is running around.  A White could eat the husband but not the wife.  I don't write this stuff I just try to understand what Butcher is selling.

Ah, thanks for the explanation. I see what you mean now. Though Thomas and Justine's relationship and the resultant pregnancy seems to serve as a counterexample, doesn't it? More speculatively, there is also the marriage loophole I advocated.

[ApollonianAcolyte]

It is true.. Page 373 White Night, Harry and Lara kiss..

Then on the next page 373 White Night;

I think there's been some misunderstanding on your part or a miscommunication on mine.

First off, I have to ask: I have read White Night and am aware of all that you have quoted; have you read Something Borrowed? As I stated, my argument hinges on the events of that story.

Secondly, I want to reiterate that I am not denying that Lara cannot touch Harry while he is under the true love protection. I am of course aware that Lara is allergic to true love, and that Harry currently has that protection from Murphy.

So I am not arguing for Lara to be immune to the true love protection, I am providing an alternative (and speculative) way that the true love protection can be overcome apart from him hooking up with someone else, ie., through a wedding. Again the point is that the true love protection will end, not that Lara will be somehow immune to true love.

So pointing out that Lara was burnt by Harry's true love protection doesn't really address my point since I never denied that she was weak to true love.

I hope that was clear this time.

[morriswalters]

Ah, thanks for the explanation. I see what you mean now. Though Thomas and Justine's relationship and the resultant pregnancy seems to serve as a counterexample, doesn't it? More speculatively, there is also the marriage loophole I advocated.

It proves how good a writer Butcher can be.  He sells it and I bought into it.

[Mr. Mouse]

This thread has twisted reality in a way I didn't expect. Hats off to the posters.

Consider a couple of things.  First, no vampire child could have ever been a product of true love.  Think about it.

I don't believe that's the case. If the act of sex that places the imprint of true love on the partners is also the one which results in the pregnancy then the child would be the product of true love. For example, if Justine had become pregnant the night Thomas fed on her at the end of Blood Rites.

Second question I get that the Big Foot's boy can feed his vampire lover because of his reserves but how does she keep from getting burned if they have true love between them?

They didn't seem to have gotten to that point in their relationship when we see them in Bigfoot on Campus. Can you imagine the fight they might have if one of them gets angry that this hasn't become an issue for them? "You don't truly love me, otherwise there'd be 3rd degree burns!"

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Has anyone thought Irwins life force is so powerful it is automatically healing his love as she burns from his touch?

[forumghost]

Maybe she's changed diets and literally lives on love lol.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

I think we are due a denouement as to the origins of the White Court, as part of the process of rescuing Thomas, and this may sweep up Irwins situation.

[Mira]

So I am not arguing for Lara to be immune to the true love protection, I am providing an alternative (and speculative) way that the true love protection can be overcome apart from him hooking up with someone else, ie., through a wedding. Again the point is that the true love protection will end, not that Lara will be somehow immune to true love.

Jenny is not White Court if I remember correctly.. But it really doesn't matter, we've had this debate for years, if one is raped for example that blows one's true love protection.  It doesn't seem fair, but there you are. It's the physical sex act with another that blows the true love protection.  Even if Will didn't know it was Jenny, it was still Jenny, so that counts.  Harry is going to remain deeply in love with Murphy's memory for some time, if he takes up with another woman in the next year, his protection is blown... Lara may insist that he does, not taking a chance that he is still protected even though Murphy is dead.

[BrainFireBob]

True love's not the thing. An act of true love's the thing.

Seems to function like ports. Vampire plugs in via holes in the security scan, an act of true love turns on security.

A wedding, sexual intercourse, and significant acts of self-sacrifice are the three turn-on acts we've seen in-series. If the act is done without true love, true love protection is over-written/displaced.

But it's when the act is done out of feeling that protection occurs, not just having the feeling. Until they were intimate, Harry had no protection from Murphy. If he falls in love with someone else or out of love with Murphy, his protection from an act of true love should remain.

Edit:

Connie and Irwin have a relationship where perhaps they are falling in love, but their intercourse was out of being teens. Her Hunger was sated without being exploded, so it never "woke up." How the heck that interacts, we don't know. Would touching Harry burn her, or is it only when they try to feed? Does Connie ever try to feed aside from mid coitus with Irwin?