Author Topic: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow  (Read 12056 times)

Offline g33k

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2022, 01:39:47 AM »
The Sigil is gone, Molly tiptoed through Harry's Tulips, he got a power up from Mr. Sunshine and his soul went on a walkabout in Ghost Story.  If she's in there, she's well hidden. But I admire an optimist.

Making the Sigil go away is presumably easy for a Fallen; given that it was only a Shadow -- not an actual Fallen -- I'm guessing it was a "False Flag" planted to help the victim (Harry) feel guilty, and hopeless:  already Marked, already Claimed, already on-file with a change-of-address to "Warmer Climes" (all a lie, of course; but lies are how they roll Down There).

Molly's good, but a relative novice.  She was losing mentally to Capiorcorpus, who was just a century or two old; I'm sure the Shadow of a Fallen is hidden from most mortal mind-magic; even a natural talent like Molly (maybe if she'd had another century's experience, it'd have been different?  Or maybe not!).  Note, for example -- a Fallen had just exerted mental influence to make Harry suicidal.  That's a major invasion, fresh in his mind... and he calls on Molly to help him... and she didn't notice anything.

Mr. Sunshine's powerup, I think, had several purposes.  First, it's reward for resisting the Shadow so long; second, Up There thinks that Harry's gonna to keep fighting the Outsiders, and wants the Starborn Wizard suitably equipped.  Third -- and perhaps most importantly -- Harry now has a tangible proof that the Divine approves of him, of what he does, of how he does it.

Because we know that Harry having faith in himself and his magic is critical to his success; and that particular "attaboy" is particularly meaningful to him; he is officially on the same team that Michael Carpenter is on, and Michael is "the best man Harry knows."

If it turns out that Harry does still have Lasciel's Shadow (and Lash is gone) that's gonna hit him in the morale really hard.  Knowing he has Soulfire (Heaven's vote of confidence in him) could be a key asset in resisting a new assault on his independence.

Really:  how often do you think Uriel's actions are a single-ply deep in complexity?  I'm quite certain there are other layers that I haven't spotted; even if my "Lasciel's still there" theory turns out to be wrong.

Harry's soul *did* go walkabout, it's true.  But he took everything with him on his little jaunt (except his living vitality), and brought it all back.  Or, possibly, Lasciel stayed quiescent in his meat-brain, and when he woke back in his body, so did she.

(n.b. despite my arguing with you:  the admiration is mutual!)


I on the other hand suggest she's hiding in plain sight.
"She" the Shadow, or Lasciel herself?

We're told that the Shadow -- all that's left of her (traces? some? most? all? we don't really have a clue, afaik) -- became Bonea.

However, I'm uncertain we've been told that by anyone both sufficiently-informed and sufficiently-unbiased that we can rely on that info; I consider it only a "working theory."

Or are you suggesting that Lasciel herself has found a new Host "in plain sight" ... i.e. with one of Harry's friends/acquaintences (maybe Lara?  maybe one of the Alpha's?  etc).

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2022, 02:30:38 AM »
No.  I'm suggesting that when the heat was on that Lash saw a way to break free and burned out the parts that linked her to Lasciel. She then created the character of Bonea to hide in.  Pancake recipes and all. Now to be clear this is my fantasy, who knows what Butcher has planned. But it works within the story. In my internal book she is watching over Maggie and waiting for her moment. She is the redeemed Lasciel.  In my story she becomes the Archive.

Offline g33k

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2022, 03:12:26 AM »
No.  I'm suggesting that when the heat was on that Lash saw a way to break free and burned out the parts that linked her to Lasciel. She then created the character of Bonea to hide in.  Pancake recipes and all. Now to be clear this is my fantasy, who knows what Butcher has planned. But it works within the story. In my internal book she is watching over Maggie and waiting for her moment. She is the redeemed Lasciel.  In my story she becomes the Archive.
I'm pretty down with that theory, except one element:  every indication is that Lasciel's Shadow was fully disconnected from Lasciel the Fallen.  If there WAS a genuine connection, Lasciel would have moved to prevent the Shadow from disconnecting them.

How about this:  "Lash" was having an inner fight against "Lasciel's Shadow" (very much in the Bob-vs-EvilBob model).  What Lash burned out was most of what was left of the old/original Shadow.  But the whole event created tremendous trauma -- Lash was fighting (and destroyed) a part of herself, after all -- and what survived has "regressed" and is in many ways very simple and childlike.

I don't think "Lash" would have been lying to Harry, in the aftermath of the Raith Deeps.  She was ready to come clean about most everything; for her to instigate an entirely new deception seems... off-kilter.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2022, 10:49:55 AM »
That would work.

Offline Aiotanga

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2022, 07:55:40 AM »
Uriel sees Dresden without deception, and Mr Sunshine would not be supporting Dresden now. Lasciel is gone.

Offline g33k

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2022, 08:18:38 PM »
Uriel sees Dresden without deception, and Mr Sunshine would not be supporting Dresden now. Lasciel is gone.

... unless Uriel has decided, "he's done it this long, he can keep doing it; shadow or not...  And one day, this 'vote of confidence' may be just the reassurance he needs, to keep the Shadow from convincing him."

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2022, 09:31:07 PM »
Uriel is an intellectus, he always knew.

Offline EBRIEN

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2022, 10:01:05 PM »
Just rereading Battleground where Harry goes after Rudy and Butters tags him with the Sword. There's the smell of sulfur and brimstone. So, if not the Shadow, then...? Maybe just a hellish moment for Harry all the way around (capital H hell as well?)

Offline g33k

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2022, 10:19:41 PM »
Just rereading Battleground where Harry goes after Rudy and Butters tags him with the Sword. There's the smell of sulfur and brimstone. So, if not the Shadow, then...? Maybe just a hellish moment for Harry all the way around (capital H hell as well?)

This, to me, is a key point.
"Brimstone" has always (before this) been a signpost of the Fallen.

Add that Harry was having an out-of-control rage (with admittedly good justification)... almost identical to what Lasciel's Shadow used to foster.



So, Harry most likely has a Fallen Shadow.

Unless folks are suggesting that he's become an actual Knight of the Blackened Denarius...?

Offline Mira

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2022, 12:41:04 AM »
This, to me, is a key point.
"Brimstone" has always (before this) been a signpost of the Fallen.

Add that Harry was having an out-of-control rage (with admittedly good justification)... almost identical to what Lasciel's Shadow used to foster.



So, Harry most likely has a Fallen Shadow.

Unless folks are suggesting that he's become an actual Knight of the Blackened Denarius...?

Unless that wasn't what he smelt at all, it is only what he thought he smelled.. The angel of the Sword was giving him a warning.  I have to go back and reread the passage, but if only Harry smelt it, it may not have been real. 

Offline g33k

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2022, 12:45:17 AM »
Unless that wasn't what he smelt at all, it is only what he thought he smelled.. The angel of the Sword was giving him a warning.  I have to go back and reread the passage, but if only Harry smelt it, it may not have been real.

Unless the Knights have known all along that the Shadow wasn't gone.  Harry never really made a big deal of it, to most of his friends; neither the presence of Lasciel's Shadow, nor the loss of Lash.

They *expected* to smell the brimstone, didn't find it worth mentioning, since clearly Harry wasn't ready to talk about it...

And nobody else was there to notice, or report (barring Rudy, but... yeah.).

(Edit -- I don't mean to suggest that it's an obvious and incontrovertible "fact" that the Shadow's still there; but it's a distinct possibility... and not really contradicted, that I can see, anywhere in DV canon) .
« Last Edit: May 29, 2022, 12:49:42 AM by g33k »

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2022, 01:49:26 AM »
Really, deep down, Harry is a boy scout and a powder puff and wouldn't harm a fly. However if anybody was living in the Hotel Dresden, and Bonea, Molly and Uriel are unaware of it, then the place must have more rooms then Hilbert's Hotel.

Having gotten that out of my system,  my distaste for the idea doesn't mean it isn't where Butcher is going. However it might be a mistake to think that Harry is Simon Pure and doesn't have a little demon hidden in the old closet that isn't named Lash. The events of Battle Ground aren't the first time that Harry thought about going over to the Dark Side..

Offline g33k

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2022, 02:37:30 AM »
... Bonea, Molly and Uriel are unaware of it ...

Bonea may be "part of the problem" so to speak.  Or she may have simply been created with a specific blind-spot (akin to Bob's inabilty to recall anything to do with Kemmler's lore; in fact, very-directly-parallel... except designed with an extra few million years' experience).

Molly just isn't playing in that league.  She's very, very good ...
For a mortal wizard ...
With less than a decade of experience.

Uriel... <shrug>
I don't think we can evaluate him.
Mr. Sunshine is playing the long game.  Very, very long.  And in the end, it's only the Shadow of the Fallen, and a Shadow that Harry has been mostly-resisting for years.  Uriel may be perfectly happy with how Harry is shaping-up as a "Shadowed" mortal.


Offline Mira

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2022, 10:38:45 AM »
Quote
Having gotten that out of my system,  my distaste for the idea doesn't mean it isn't where Butcher is going. However it might be a mistake to think that Harry is Simon Pure and doesn't have a little demon hidden in the old closet that isn't named Lash. The events of Battle Ground aren't the first time that Harry thought about going over to the Dark Side..

Nobody has ever suggested that Harry is Simon Pure, nobody is, no even Michael.. Yes, and even Michael is capable of going off the deep end when a loved one is hurt.  That's one of the lessons if you watch your Star Wars, that is why the Jedi are supposed to remain emotionally detached, they can lose it over a loved one and not get back.  That's what happened to Vader..

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2022, 05:18:45 PM »
Michael also has a potty mouth which apparently lasted from Murphy’s funeral to a couple of weeks later when it finally stopped and he could undertake a hospital visit to a sick child without unintentionally expanding its vocabulary. Apparently he couldn’t help himself, he was swearing every waking moment and even swearing even in his sleep.

Even Michael represses things. Just be glad he hadn’t forsworn maturation, it would have killed him withe dehydration and blood loss.