Harry still hosts Lasciel's Shadow

[g33k]

n.b. "Lasciel's Shadow" and not "Lash."

In another thread, I advanced this theory.  I haven't seen anyone suggest it previously... but I could easily have missed it.  Apologies if this has previously been thrashed-over!

I thought the notion seemed solid enough to present as its own topic, under its own title.  Below, I expand on the idea (a bit of text copied from that thread).

In Battle-Ground, Harry goes ragemode, loses his temper, and tries to kill Rudy.  A couple of Knights of the Cross step in... in fact, the ONLY TWO THERE ARE step in!

Let's think back to the last time Harry was called-out for losing his temper:  he had to have a chat with the Shadow, for amping-up his rage.

Let's think about Changes for a moment... Harry gets a call from Susan, learns about Maggie, and... begins to feel a "subterranean" rage begin growing.  Almost like something in his unconscious was deliberately holding it in check, stoking it, shaping it.  "Protect the offspring" says id!Harry... who we know speaks more freely to the Shadow.  And at the end of that story, in a burst of "out-of-nowhere" inspiration, Harry comes up with the idea of... sabotaging the woman he (still!) loves, the mother of his child; and sacrificing her to the blood-magic ritual.  Seems almost... fiendishly inspired, eh?  And then he suffers 2 minutes of amnesia.  Gee, whatever could have happened there?  Nothing too bad, surely!  Those 2 minutes were called a "Chekhov's Gun" and I think it nearly-certain that's right.

Back to Battle Ground, where that Harry-vs-Butters battle scene ended when Butters' Sword stripped off the WK-Mantle... and also revealed the scent of Brimstone.  When was the last time Harry's powers smelt of Brimstone?  Maybe the Sword also stripped away the Shadow's ability to cloud Harry's senses, hmmm?

Theoretically, Sanya came to Chicago to fight Ethniu, but... that's not the Knights' job!  Their job is to oppose the Fallen and to redeem the Fallen's Host.  Now the world's entire complement of KotC's are tag-teaming one person... I'm gonna say the odds favor that person being a Denarian.

"But wait" you cry.  "Bob already told Harry, after the Raith Deeps, that (a) his head was full of holes & (b) a chunk of his soul was gone."  Ergo, Lash really did sacrifice herself, and is gone (producing Bonea, of course).

Yep, I agree!  Lash -- the part of the Shadow that Harry "converted" and gave a bit of soul to -- is gone.  But as we already know (from seeing Evil Bob, and from Bob's nervousness about Evil-Bob-stuff):  these "Spirits of Intellect" can be split in two, with each part remaining a largely-cohisive whole; and furthermore, WoJ has stated that Bonea's genesis was very very much like Bob's; Bob&Bonea are like Bobbsey Twins!

Lasciel... the Temptress, the Deceiver, the Weaver of Webs.  I mean... what are the odds she might have laid a deeper deception against Harry?  Abandoned one mask, that had failed, and retreated to the deep shadows to try again once Harry had "learned for certain" that the Shadow was gone.

I'm gonna say Jim has given us all the clues we need.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The problem is Uriel, HE would know so either your wrong or Uriel is playing along with Lash.

The latter is not impossible if it is part of a wider redemption arc being played out by Uriel for Lash, a longer play to re-unite Lash with Lasciel to allow her to be Risen, which ultimately  is what he is after. Getting hosts redeemed like Sasha is a big win, but returning a Fallen to the fold dwarfs it in comparison.

I think in the Dresden Files we are going to see Harry responsible at least in part for the creation of a Risen, the redemption of a Fallen and it could be either Lasciel or Anduriel given his extended interaction with them/their hosts. If Lash in some degree survived then my money is on Lasciel. Certainly part of Lash survived in Bonea, so that story line really hasn’t ended yet.

[morriswalters]

Never say never.  But Harry has had rage issues since Storm Front. Where he proclaims...

The Shadowman was inside, and he was gathering his might, preparing to unleash the spell that would kill me. What reason had I to let him go on breathing?

I clenched my fists in fury, and I could feel the air crackle with tension as I prepared to destroy the lake house, the Shadowman, and any of the pathetic underlings he had with him. With such power, I could cast my defiance at the Council itself, the gathering of white-bearded old fools without foresight, without imagination, without vision. The Council, and that pathetic watchdog, Morgan, had no idea of the true depths of my strength. The energy was all there, gleeful within my anger, ready to reach out and reduce to ashes all that I hated and feared.

Seems pretty rage like to me.

[Mira]

Never say never.  But Harry has had rage issues since Storm Front. Where he proclaims...Seems pretty rage like to me.

Issues?  Um the Shadowman was getting ready to explode his heart remotely.. He proved he could do it, Harry saw the results.. So hell yeah, he'd want to kill him before he was killed.  The issue isn't that he contemplated doing it, the issue is why didn't he?  People in a rage don't stop to think, they just act.. That scene doesn't at all demonstrate "rage issues" on Harry's part.

[morriswalters]

Examine the prose.  How Butcher wrote what he wrote and what he said. The threat is merely the motivation. Tonally it is remarkably similar the the internal dialog just before he attacks Rudolph.

[EBRIEN]

Consider that Lasciel's coin was taken up by another after Harry. Would that extinguish the shadow residing in his head? If the fallen are bound to the coin, would the acceptance by another be enough? Sort of an "Oh well...not gonna waste anymore time on Harry when I've got another host willingly embracing me."

Certainly, JB, can write it however he wants, but that would seem to be kinda soap opera-ish to me.

As far as Sanya being in Chicago, Marcone has a coin and was in play throughout whether he used Nam's powers or not. Though he was revealed at the end of the story, maybe the holiness of the swords was necessary to contribute to the stopping of Ethniu. There is the mention of something divine being something that had power against her armor, I think.

I like the theory and that's one of the main reasons I'm here---to listen and reflect on ideas of this community. Just not sure about this one.

[Snark Knight]

Possible, but I'm not convinced the smell of brimstone was even so external as anything still riding in Harry's passenger seat.

Soulfire and Hellfire are two sides of the same coin - I think that was Harry on the verge of corrupting Uriel's gift simply out of his own wrath and Winter's influence over how to express it, and the Knights were deployed to get him to step back from that brink.

Pretty sure something 'cheated' to arrange Harry's failure to get a shield up and Rudolph's semi-accidental trigger finger in order to provoke him to such a reaction, too. That might have given Uriel the leeway to move pieces to save Harry's soul.

[Mira]

Soulfire and Hellfire are two sides of the same coin - I think that was Harry on the verge of corrupting Uriel's gift simply out of his own wrath and Winter's influence over how to express it, and the Knights were deployed to get him to step back from that brink.

Except when he went after Rudolph he didn't use Soul Fire, didn't even think to call it up.  It may be a subtle difference, but he didn't cross the line.. I don't think the Winter Mantle had anything to do with Harry striking out at Rudolph, that was pure reaction when he witnessed something one should never witness, and Harry simply lost it.. When wizards lose it, it is very bad ass..

[g33k]

The problem is Uriel, HE would know so either your wrong or Uriel is playing along with Lash.

The latter is not impossible if it is part of a wider redemption arc being played out by Uriel for Lash, a longer play to re-unite Lash with Lasciel to allow her to be Risen, which ultimately  is what he is after. Getting hosts redeemed like Sasha is a big win, but returning a Fallen to the fold dwarfs it in comparison.

I think in the Dresden Files we are going to see Harry responsible at least in part for the creation of a Risen, the redemption of a Fallen and it could be either Lasciel or Anduriel given his extended interaction with them/their hosts. If Lash in some degree survived then my money is on Lasciel. Certainly part of Lash survived in Bonea, so that story line really hasn’t ended yet. 

I suspect (if my WAG is right) that Uriel simply feels that Harry has demonstrated enough ability to resist the Shadow, and to turn back from brinks that he was set-up upon; Uriel can work with Harry even though the Shadow's still there.

I too agree that one (or more?) of the Fallen may be on redemption-arcs.  My bet is Anduriel; but maybe Nicodemus will instead give up the Coin (it seems to me another likely redemption-arc).  I don't think that Harry's Lash has much bearing on Lasciel, though!

[g33k]

Never say never.  But Harry has had rage issues since Storm Front. Where he proclaims...
[SNIP]
Seems pretty rage like to me.

Rage, sure.  But he self-controlled it.  The key issue is:  Harry didn't do it.  Harry didn't use his magic to do something "wrong."

I'm pointing to times where Harry used beyond-mortal means -- whether his wizard power, his WK-mantle, or an ancient Rampire blood-magic ritual -- to actually do something wrong.

I note he was also similarly-tempted under Hexenwulf-belt influence, for example.
 

[g33k]

Consider that Lasciel's coin was taken up by another after Harry. Would that extinguish the shadow residing in his head? If the fallen are bound to the coin, would the acceptance by another be enough? Sort of an "Oh well...not gonna waste anymore time on Harry when I've got another host willingly embracing me."

I don't think the Fallen have any control over (or feedback from) their Shadows... except (maybe) Anduriel?
 "Master of Shadows" has maybe got an extra leg up... ).

They are like photocopies -- you can put it on a corkboard, use it as a blueprint, stuff it in a filing-cabinet, run it through a shredder.  None of it affects (or is affected by) the Fallen who made it.

So Lasciel has a new host?  Pffft.  Other Shadows will just go, "fine, I'm warming up in the bullpen."

... As far as Sanya being in Chicago, Marcone has a coin and was in play throughout whether he used Nam's powers or not... 

Yes, but... did either Knight ever do anything about Marcone or Namshiel?

I repeat:  two Knights of the Cross teamed up in combat against one opponent.

Given what their explicit mission is -- Denarians -- I will point out that Jim could have written
(a) either Knight as sufficient;
(b) or even Billy;
(c) or any of Harry's other friends;
but that two Knights stumbling into the same scene & acting in concert is really, really strong evidence they are specifically facing Denarian/Fallen action.

I like the theory and that's one of the main reasons I'm here---to listen and reflect on ideas of this community. Just not sure about this one.

Oh, I'm not "sure" about it, either; it's clearly just a WAG, not a surety!
But I think the key "KotC action" argument is just incredibly strong... and there's some circumstantial lines of evidence that IMO run much more strongly to corroboration than to contradiction.

As you say -- interesting ideas from the community are a great feature of this forum!  And if someone "proves" me wrong... I'm OK with that, too!  (noting that no WAG is proven or disproven until WoJ or its actual proof/disproof in canonical DF stories).

[g33k]

... When wizards lose it, it is very bad ass..

Yeah... except Harry didn't use much wizardry, either.  Mostly, he used the Winter Mantle.

Lasciel don't care.  Wizardry or Mantles... power in the hands of mortals is a wonderful thing!

Power corrupts; and in that moment -- barring KotC intervention -- Harry had all the power needed vs. Rudy.

... I don't think the Winter Mantle had anything to do with Harry striking out at Rudolph, that was pure reaction when he witnessed something one should never witness, and Harry simply lost it ...

I agree that Harry "just lost it" when he saw something so terrible to him.
And there was the WK-mantle:  cold revenge, territoriality, rage, and extreme physicality; just sitting there for him to pick up and use.

Look at what he did:  he was about to commit murder, out of revenge; he beat the crap out of a dear friend; and started to do so with another.

Tell me again -- more convincingly -- why he'd do those (especially Sanya & Butters!) if his "inner rage" wasn't getting artificially-amped-up...?
 

[morriswalters]

Rage, sure.  But he self-controlled it.  The key issue is:  Harry didn't do it.  Harry didn't use his magic to do something "wrong."

I'm pointing to times where Harry used beyond-mortal means -- whether his wizard power, his WK-mantle, or an ancient Rampire blood-magic ritual -- to actually do something wrong.

I note he was also similarly-tempted under Hexenwulf-belt influence, for example.

Actually his Mother's spirit may have stopped him.

I held it in my hand, felt its cool strength, its ordered and rational geometry. The five-pointed star within the circle was the ancient sign of white wizardry, the only remembrance of my mother. The cold strength of the pentacle gave me a chance, a moment to think again, to clear my head.

I took deep breaths, struggling to see clear of the anger, the hate, the deep lust that burned within me for vengeance and retribution.

You see you can hold rage in a thousand times till the time comes that you can't.  This happens again when he finds that Raith killed his mother.  This is why that Listens To Wind offer to help him with his anger issues.

[Mira]

Yeah... except Harry didn't use much wizardry, either.  Mostly, he used the Winter Mantle.

The Winter Mantle makes it hard for him, but he has lost it wizardwise as well.  The latter admittedly under the influence of Lasciel's Shadow, but when the Ghouls killed and ate part of those sixteen year old Warden trainees, Harry lost it totally, there was no Winter Mantle then. He also lost it at Bianca's party after he realized those kids were being poisoned or turned, that they tried to unmake a Holy Sword and a few other things. but he totally lost it and there wasn't any Shadow influence yet either.

Look at what he did:  he was about to commit murder, out of revenge; he beat the crap out of a dear friend; and started to do so with another.

I need to listen tomorrow, and perhaps you as well to either Fresh Air or the show that comes on around 10:00 am on NPR radio tomorrow.  A psychologist is going to come to explain why it is that people sometimes "snap" or "lose it"

“Why We Snap” outlines nine, but some of the most common ones are a life or death threat, threat to a loved one, threat to your home, or threat to your tribe. “Our brain is wired to constantly be on the lookout for threats,” Fields says. “In response to sudden danger, we react automatically; you can't think about

That is what happened to Harry, seeing Murphy shot then dying in his arms, he snapped, if he were just an ordinary vanilla human it still would have happened.  He would have taken a weapon or used his bare hands, but he would have gone after Rudolph and through anyone who tried to stop him. Let us not also forget that Rudolph wasn't just some random careless cop who's bad habits finally caught up to him.  He had been after Murphy and Harry for some time, so Harry had every reason in the moment to believe what Rudolph did was no accident.  Harry is a powerful wizard and Winter Knight to boot , I think the only thing in that moment that could have stopped him was a warning burn from a Holy Sword.  Which it did, Butters and Sanya understood that and forgave him. 

[morriswalters]

Snapping implies a loss of control.  In terms of character development why did Butcher have Harry lose his shit? What did the passage accomplish?  What was it meant to do? I understand the emotional shorthand that Butcher is using, at least in part.

Butcher is showing you the monster.  The other Harry. the Harry that is arrogant, full of rage, and absolutely cock sure of himself.  Who is certain that what he is doing is right, and the way it's supposed to be. 

Rudolph isn't the Red King, he's only a threat by accident. When Harry kills Susan you can accept it however morally grey, because Harry is still thinking and you know that Susan would have done whatever it took to save her daughter.  Harry is evil in this passage because killing Rudolph serves no purpose.  Murphy is dead and that can't be changed.  Harry is angry because Rudolph took one of his toys and broke it.  He wants Rudolph destroyed.  He wants him to suffer and be reduced to something no longer quite human.

Remember what Lea told Harry in Ghost Story?

“Is that the lesson you took from the memory?” Lea asked, her smile spreading. “You were clearly being prepared to be an enforcer.” “It seems that way,” I hedged, trying to read her expression. “But Justin never actually tried to get me to hurt anyone.” “Why would he wish you to be armed against him before he was certain of your loyalty?” Lea asked. “He would have. It was inevitable.” “Probably,” I said. “But there’s no way we can know, really. It’s a long way from breaking boards in practice to breaking bones in life.” “Quite. Because convincing a young mortal to believe that it is right and proper to use magic for violence is a delicate process and one that cannot be rushed.”

Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (pp. 353-354). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

My contention is that now you know.  Harry was programmed to react in this way.

I feel sorry for Harry because as a character he's been abused by people close to him. He was programmed to be a psychopath.  He's trying to be something more.  I wish I was going to see how it all turns out.