Battle ground questions

[Fcrate]

I have just finished rereading Battleground.. I was less impressed with it the second time around, but many of my original sore points are the same. I don't know if anyone posted the answers before..
1. Who were the older wardens of Demonreach? And how did they trap beings that according to Harry, were much stronger than Ethniu? And when? And what exactly is stronger than a Titan?
2 .How did Justine get super-strength? There wasn't any mention of that in earlier possessions by Nemesis.
3. In Turncoat, Justine told the captain of the wardens about Thomas being Harry's brother. Effectively putting itself at risk of losing a favorable position in the White Court. Also in ghost story, Uriel shows Thomas and Justine to Harry, assuring him that his brother will be alright. So the archangel didn't know? Which makes me think that "Justine being Nemfected" wasn't in Jim's plan back then. It lacks consistency.
4. Why, after a few chapters of telling us that the Winter Knight's office was created to actually manifest a banner and lead troops in battle, do we find Marcone manifesting a banner as well?
5. How the hell did Marcone get enough juice to stand off a Titan for a few minutes when all other gods and immortals lost in a couple of seconds? Marcone was always purely vanilla. Zero magical ability. Yet he picks up a coin with a sorcery sensie fallen angel and he becomes a wizard? Older evidence suggests that it doesn't work like that. I remember in Death Masks Jim said that "over centuries, even a small scale talent develops teeth". Marcone didn't have that to start with. And he only had the coin for a few years.
Finally, and this is not a question: I never liked Murphy as a character, and I'm glad she's finally dead, but the scene with the knights stopping Harry from making a Rudolph Burger - and Harry crying afterwards and regretting attacking him- is just horrible and overblown. I mean.. His gf was shot dead in front of him, he can do something about it, I think this is the time to start cutting off bits of Rudolph, and it's quite childish to expect otherwise.
I liked the scene at the end of the movie "Seven" much better. Much more believable.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

1. The OG Merlin and Heinrich Kemmler for two, there is a huge summoning circle of Demonreach, so with time to research and prepare you can bring the Big Bad to the island that way. Harry had neither for Ethnui. Baelor, Ethnui’s dad for one.

2. The earlier possessions by Nemesis we have seen were of already supernaturally strong individuals. This is the first vanilla mortal.

3. Justine was infected when Maeve died in Cold days, the Mantle went to Molly, Nemesis went to Justine. Molly had been trained in mental badassery and had even beaten Corpsetaker, Justine had a fragile psyche. Previous hosts were either willing like Maeve, or invaded by a prepared vector (like Lea), the invasion of Justine was neither prepared nor willing.

4. It was a clue that Marcone was also a Knight. The winter Knight Mantle was patterned after something, most likely the knights of the Blackened Denarius. I be the Kights of the Sword could also manifest a banner in the right circumstances, both Marcone and Harry considered Chicago ‘their’ City to defend, Michael could probably have manifested a Banner during Battle Field as well, it is his city as well.
Butters a servant of the City (and Ill served by it no, he probably could in San Diego during Comic-Con though), Sanya is a citizen of the world, no local connection to the people in it, no banner.)

5. Marcone has one of the most formidable wills known in a vanilla human, he has even turned down Lara’s come hither. That will, that focus with even the most marginal of talents would be enough.

The Knights were there not to stop Ethnui, but to stop Harry from becoming a monster in his own eyes, his own greatest fear, which had previously led him to try to kill himself. That was the role of Murphy’s death a goad to his humanity unlike any other, the sheer outrage and the instrument behind it being so loathsome. My view Lucifer was behind Rudy’s lax trigger finger to make him a Starborn more in his image. It’s why the Knights were there to intervene.

[morriswalters]

1. Butcher isn't clear on when the prison was occupied or who captured the most powerful of them.  In point of fact he is so vague that my mother could have built the prison in the future after her death. When Butcher wants to lie he uses Bob to do the deed. He has half of fandom believing that Rashid time travels because of Proven Guilty while he describes something completely different in the text.
2. No vanilla human had been nemfected prior to this.  So he had an open field.
3. He has this running gag with all these mind visitors being invisible. It brings to mind this ditty.

Yesterday, upon the stair, I met a man who wasn't there! He wasn't there again today, Oh how I wish he'd go away!

There's a club for everyone who has spent time in the hotel Dresden.
4. I have no idea.
5.  Don't question the obvious.  He got it because Butcher cares for canon only when it suits him. He killed every character that didn't have a magical basis.  Thus Murphy and Hendricks. He had to put angels in the swords because he created a weapon that couldn't be used in a fight. Marcone needed a power up to stay relevant.  So Butcher threw canon to the winds and Bob's your uncle. Marcone is officially a heavy hitter.  This is the second time he has done this with the first being Butters.  From zero to hero in one book and two hot werewolf babes to drive home the point. His inner fan boy has gotten a little out of control in this respect.

On Murphy's death.  There is another purpose. First she wasn't murdered, which was what the putting Harry in Rudolph's shoes is telling you.  The shooting was accidental. The other is to sell you on Harry being a ruthless killer when provoked, the Destroyer so to speak. This has been going on since Storm Front, with someone there to stop him before he goes over the edge.

[LaraBeck]

About Murphy's death... Well, it was the Knights of the Cross who actually helped her get in the battlefield to be with Harry, so it seems to me like the White God knew pretty well what was going to happen: that Harry would need help with the Jotun, Murphy would be the one that could help him for some reason, and that he would feel a little better with she around. TWG probably knew that she would die that night and that Harry would need help with that too, so that's why the knights remain there with him too.

I guess it could be argued to some extent that it was TWG who set the whole thing up actually. But we'll see.

I think the scene made sense, as much as I didn't like it, it did. It was supposed to show us how Harry was so on the edge that night, and how he was very close to turn into a monster, and that was why the sword hurt him. I don't think the consequences ended that night, though, we'll see more about this whole thing in the next couple of books maybe.

[Fcrate]

5.  Don't question the obvious.  He got it because Butcher cares for canon only when it suits him. He killed every character that didn't have a magical basis.  Thus Murphy and Hendricks. He had to put angels in the swords because he created a weapon that couldn't be used in a fight. Marcone needed a power up to stay relevant.  So Butcher threw canon to the winds and Bob's your uncle. Marcone is officially a heavy hitter.  This is the second time he has done this with the first being Butters.  From zero to hero in one book and two hot werewolf babes to drive home the point. His inner fan boy has gotten a little out of control in this respect.

On Murphy's death.  There is another purpose. First she wasn't murdered, which was what the putting Harry in Rudolph's shoes is telling you.  The shooting was accidental. The other is to sell you on Harry being a ruthless killer when provoked, the Destroyer so to speak. This has been going on since Storm Front, with someone there to stop him before he goes over the edge.

That was my thought as well. And already Butters is managing "basics" of magic spells, right after "he didn't have a lick of talent, but used Molly to implement his theories, and Bob to power up his constructs.

About Murphy's death... Well, it was the Knights of the Cross who actually helped her get in the battlefield to be with Harry, so it seems to me like the White God knew pretty well what was going to happen: that Harry would need help with the Jotun, Murphy would be the one that could help him for some reason, and that he would feel a little better with she around. TWG probably knew that she would die that night and that Harry would need help with that too, so that's why the knights remain there with him too.

I guess it could be argued to some extent that it was TWG who set the whole thing up actually. But we'll see.

I think the scene made sense, as much as I didn't like it, it did. It was supposed to show us how Harry was so on the edge that night, and how he was very close to turn into a monster, and that was why the sword hurt him. I don't think the consequences ended that night, though, we'll see more about this whole thing in the next couple of books maybe.

The shooting being accidental is irrelevant. He picked up a gun, aimed it and pulled the trigger. I still think that Harry should've burnt him into a crisp or something, and it wouldn't have anything to do with Winter either. Humans do vengeance fine on their own. Rudolph will never face justice. The only witnesses are a persona non-grata and someone with a horrible eyesight. Come to think of it, Harry always freezes when somebody aims a gun at him, and his thoughts are "I probably won't have time to put up a shield before he shoots" while the conversation lasts for minutes.

[morriswalters]

If it was the right thing to kill him then he would be dead, the sword couldn't have stopped him. And that's the point. Butcher is trying to take you on a journey.  He's trying to show you the Harry you never see.  He just clutters the stage so bad you can't see it.

[Mira]

On Murphy's death.  There is another purpose. First she wasn't murdered, which was what the putting Harry in Rudolph's shoes is telling you.  The shooting was accidental. The other is to sell you on Harry being a ruthless killer when provoked, the Destroyer so to speak. This has been going on since Storm Front, with someone there to stop him before he goes over the edge.

No, I don't think the shooting qualifies as accidental.  Why?  Because before that moment at least once Rudolph was called out by his fellow officers for having his gun out and his finger on the trigger when there wasn't a reason for it.  I'm no lawyer, but I think that qualifies for negligent homicide, or
manslaughter, no clue what the degree is.  It happens in car accidents or when a pedestrian is hit and killed, the driver didn't set out to kill anyone, didn't mean to kill anyone,it wasn't deliberate, but neither was it an accident.  But if it is proved that his or her reckless behavior caused or led to the death of another, while he or she usually isn't charged with murder, he or she can be charged with negligent homicide or manslaughter. If found guilty, the person can and often does go to prison for it.  Rudolph can argue that he was insane in that moment, but he was negligent and reckless with his handling of his firearm and a death resulted from it.   

As far as Harry goes, it wasn't just he lost it in the moment witnessing Murphy's death.  He also knew that Rudolph was out for both Murphy and himself before this.  So in the emotion of the moment he'd think it was murder and be hard pressed that it was an accident, which in truth, it wasn't.

[morriswalters]

The sword settled the question.  Whatever you want to call it, the sword said that killing him was off limits and put Harry into his shoes to show him why.  His friends tell him and he hurts them. And he would have broken the First Law and become what the Council said he is, a monster. That's straight out of the text.

This is what I mean when I say that the text is cluttered.  It isn't clear what the point of it is. He seems to be trying to keep the reader in the dark about  what monster Harry is.  What part of Harry did that moment represent? Was it the Destroyer or was it the Mantle?

[Mira]

  The Sword warned him, it didn't cut off his arm, it could have, but it didn't.  It gave him a nice burn to bring him back to sanity, painful, but even it wasn't all that serious.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Importantly that burn overrode the Winter Mantle and continued to so. It didn’t cease to hurt afterwards.

The burning smell was that of Brimstone. That suggests Harry was being manipulated by Lucifer, NOT purely the Winter Mantle. I think at this point Harry has mastered the Mantle, even to the extent that the woman he loved killed by the man he loathed wouldn’t have been enough to tip him over. The Sword burnt out the satanic influence and Harry was able to regain equilibrium. That’s what Sanya and Butters were there for, that was their battle.

[morriswalters]

Michael touched the blade of Fidelacchius again, more reverently. “Angels aren’t allowed to interfere with mortals or their free will,” he said. “If you’re right, Harry . . . this blade of light is a direct expression of the will of an angel. It can’t impinge upon the free will of a mortal. It can only fight evil beings who attempt the same.”

Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 178). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

It matters not one whit that it didn't cut off his arm. Nor did Lucifer have to be involved. Harry was going to commit murder. Whatever was driving him was EVIL.  Had it not been so the sword couldn't have hurt him at all.  Butchers Rule.

This side of Harry has been showing up since Storm Front when he didn't wear the Mantle.

I clenched my fists in fury, and I could feel the air crackle with tension as I prepared to destroy the lake house, the Shadowman, and any of the pathetic underlings he had with him. With such power, I could cast my defiance at the Council itself, the gathering of white-bearded old fools without foresight, without imagination, without vision. The Council, and that pathetic watchdog, Morgan, had no idea of the true depths of my strength. The energy was all there, gleeful within my anger, ready to reach out and reduce to ashes all that I hated and feared.

The silver pentacle that had been my mother's burned cold on my chest, a sudden weight that made me gasp. I sagged forward a little, and lifted a hand. My fingers were so tightly crushed into fists that it hurt to try to open them. My hand shook, wavered, and began to fall again.

Then something strange happened. Another hand took mine. The hand was slim, the fingers long and delicate. Feminine. The hand gently covered mine, and lifted it, like a small child's, until I held my mother's pentacle in my grasp.

Blood Rites

I didn't care about that, either. The power felt too good—too strong. I wanted it. I wanted Raith to pay. I wanted him to suffer, screaming, and then die for what he had done to me. And I was strong enough to make it happen. I had the power and the resolve to bring such a tide of magic against him that he would be utterly destroyed. I would lay him low and make him howl for mercy before I tore him apart. He deserved nothing less.

And then fire blossomed in my hand again, so sudden and sharp that my back convulsed into an agonized arch, and I fell to the floor. I couldn't scream. The pain washed my fury away like dandelions before a flash flood. I looked around wildly and saw the old man's broad, calloused hand clamped down over my burned, lightly bandaged flesh with bruising strength. When he saw my eyes he released my hand, his expression sickened.

And something very similar in White Knight and in Grave Peril when he burns Bianca's place down.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Brimstone is smelt only in two instances in the Dresdenverse

(1) when the devil and his minions are in play, and
(2) when Mouse has been fed onion rings.

Neither Mouse nor onion rings featured in that scene.

[Fcrate]

Revenge is evil? What happened to "an eye for an eye"? I'd say that when Harry knelt and cried in shame is the part where he was out of character. The revenge part is on par.

[morriswalters]

Revenge is evil? What happened to "an eye for an eye"? I'd say that when Harry knelt and cried in shame is the part where he was out of character. The revenge part is on par.

Here's a logical syllogism.

If Butcher says the sword can only work against evil.
and it works against Harry
Then Harry was evil when the sword struck.

Seems clear enough. Take it up with the angel in the sword or Butcher, whichever you run across first.

Brimstone is smelt only in two instances in the Dresdenverse

(1) when the devil and his minions are in play, and
(2) when Mouse has been fed onion rings.

Neither Mouse nor onion rings featured in that scene.

Neither was Lucifer unless you are saying that Harry was possessed or has picked up a coin again.

[Mr. Mouse]

The scene in Battleground when Butters and Sanya stopping Harry from killing Rudolph is a parallel of the scene in the short story "The Warrior" when Harry stops Michael from continuing to beat an unconscious Douglas (possibly killing him) after the priest had kidnapped Michael's daugher Alicia.

Would the Fidelacchius of Butters have burned Michael in that moment?