Author Topic: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp  (Read 25307 times)

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2022, 01:32:47 AM »
This true, but dead is dead, and if the host is killed the coin rolls away.  Unless it is retrieved by a Holy Knight for "safe keeping," Nic or another Denarian will pick it up to tempt the next suitable host.

So Ursiel, himself cannot be killed, he lives in his coin, but his host can be squished to death.. So wouldn't be shocked to see Ursiel again, but he will have a different body.
And yet we know the Genoskwa (Blood-on-his-Soul) has survived. Dresden saw him get crushed like a beer can under a hammer. I don't know we will ever find out exactly how it worked out, but it's fair to say "magic" was involved. And yes, Ursiel himself as an immortal is unable to be killed except in very specific circumstances.

If you never see it coming how fast you think will have nothing to do with it. 

The first quote is about opening a way in the realm.  The second about how much warning they had when the ice block crushed them.
I think spiritual beings are stronger in the Nevernever, from memory. So even if they didn't sense the impending attack, they might be more able to heal from such an assault, perhaps better than they would in the "real" world.

After all, even in the bank vault we saw Tessa turn herself into a swarm of bugs and then gets burned with holy fire/light, and she's still kicking.

Unfortunately, part of the problem is Small Favor. Jim watered down the Denarians a lot to enable them to be defeated. So the Hellhound uses a few sniper round, Eldest Gruff blows away one or two, etc. And Coins go flying. It's all set-up so Marcone gets his Coin and so all the new holders of previous Coins can exist. Jim was just cleaning house. But the issue is that it skewed our expectations. We go from Denarians being incredibly powerful and scary in Death Masks, to being essentially a couple of goons. It doesn't gel and now the expectation for us readers is that they are easily put down, when in fact I suspect that isn't how Jim sees them, given their initial introduction into the series. To me, I think the Denarians are meant to be far harder to kill than we have seen and Small Favor is an aberration in their survivability.

But that's just my two Denarius.
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24358
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2022, 10:45:34 AM »
Quote
And yet we know the Genoskwa (Blood-on-his-Soul) has survived. Dresden saw him get crushed like a beer can under a hammer. I don't know we will ever find out exactly how it worked out, but it's fair to say "magic" was involved. And yes, Ursiel himself as an immortal is unable to be killed except in very specific circumstances.

Or maybe because Sasquatches are tougher than your average beings, we've also seen River Shoulders take some fearsome punishments as well and survive.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2022, 12:04:01 PM »
With the exception of Nicodemus the Nicklehead's aren't that hard to kill.  Ursiel dies the first time in Blood Rites.  Separate the head from the body and they die. Destroy the head and they die. And so on. And he stole the idea from the Highlander, whose writer stole it from someone else.

But if Butcher wants to raise him from the dead all it takes is a word processor and the desire. At this rate I expect a party with all the quasi dead people of the  Dresden Files in attendance.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24358
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2022, 02:29:45 PM »
With the exception of Nicodemus the Nicklehead's aren't that hard to kill.  Ursiel dies the first time in Blood Rites.  Separate the head from the body and they die. Destroy the head and they die. And so on. And he stole the idea from the Highlander, whose writer stole it from someone else.

But if Butcher wants to raise him from the dead all it takes is a word processor and the desire. At this rate I expect a party with all the quasi dead people of the  Dresden Files in attendance.

Correction, Ursiel's host dies in Blood Rites, if the coin isn't accounted for by the Holy Knights and properly locked away, a new host takes up the coin and becomes the new Ursiel, and the appearance of who we think of as Ursiel.  That may get lost in the shuffle between books, but it recurs over and over, even Namshiel's host is killed in Small Favor, Namshiel doesn't return until the mortal Marcone takes up his coin in Battle Ground..  Namshiel's previous host got fully absorbed by Namshiel, he was merely called, "Namshiel."  However this didn't happen in Nic's case, his is a different partnership, one that Lasciel tried to sell Harry on.  Now did Namshiel assure Marcone that he can do the wizard thing and remain Marcone?

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2022, 05:45:12 PM »
Remember Tessa in small favor? She got a killing blow but just fell apart in many insects and they recombined again. Something like that would work.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline SerScot

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1585
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2022, 12:45:56 AM »
HHSSW,

So you think there's absolutely no way that Hannah lived,? Maybe the monkey and her helped each other escape. I mean they were both fataly injured not to mention they had to dodge and defend against The residents of Hades..they could've team up.. maybe the monkey needed Hannah to open viel and protected her til they got out . I mean cmon. If he healed himself quick ,( still don't see friggin how!) Then he could've gotten her out of that rubble. Then the two of them team up and escape Hades. Though I think he probably would've needed Asher to open a way..He's strong but I'm not sure if subtly magic is his forte.

I was about to say Asher didn’t know how to do that… but then… Lasciel could remedy that quite rapidly.
"Maybe there will be a laundry emergency at the Carpenter house, and Harry shows up with detergent saying, 'I am Harry of the White Council. And I come back to you now at the turn of the TideTM.'" -  Vairelome 9/25/2011

Mab =/= Molly

Malcom =/= KotC

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2022, 06:33:54 AM »
Or maybe because Sasquatches are tougher than your average beings, we've also seen River Shoulders take some fearsome punishments as well and survive.
Still mortal though, and anything mortal crushed by a solid ice block the size of a small building isn't going to survive unless they are able to somehow protect themselves. That much mass would be too much energy to divert via a shield, even for the Genoskwa with Ursiel I suspect. It would have kept pursuing Dresden otherwise. Harry was quite sure the old "open up a Way" trick wasn't possible where he was, particularly by anyone but him. He could be wrong, but if so why did they use him to get into the Underworld? Perhaps the Genoskwa turned itself into a liquid or gas...but that seems less likely given the requirements, and either form would struggle to maintain it's state of matter in such cold conditions.

The toughness of the being only matters if it's supernatural entirely. It's part mortal, and the physical mass has to go somewhere. His only other option is to dig into the ground beneath him, which again seems unlikely based on the speed and surprise of the attack and of the "ground" he would have to dig into.

The most likely scenario is a some sort of weird healing, or teleport. And it would have to be far enough that the Genoskwa would give up pursuit of Harry (if it were the teleport) and slow enough that immediate pursuit wasn't an option (if it were the healing factor).

River Shoulders and the Genoskwa are very tough beings, but I don't see how either of them could survive the impact of that much mass without magical assistance beyond their normal means.

With the exception of Nicodemus the Nicklehead's aren't that hard to kill.  Ursiel dies the first time in Blood Rites.  Separate the head from the body and they die. Destroy the head and they die. And so on. And he stole the idea from the Highlander, whose writer stole it from someone else.

But if Butcher wants to raise him from the dead all it takes is a word processor and the desire. At this rate I expect a party with all the quasi dead people of the  Dresden Files in attendance.
It took three Knights last time to kill Ursiel's host. As far as I am aware, no Angel has died yet, Fallen or otherwise. 

The idea of the head being the optimal target to ensure death is as old as humans. Older than any tale.

But I don't know about them being easy to kill either. In any case, clearly the Genoskwa survived somehow, and as far as I am aware they are not invulnerable or have rapid healing. So presumably his Fallen helped him survive, however it was done. The real question isn't how the trick was done, but whether the Genoskwa is still paired with Ursiel (assuming it isn't the Genoskwa from another universe, as per your theory), and when the Genoskwa will next show up.

Remember Tessa in small favor? She got a killing blow but just fell apart in many insects and they recombined again. Something like that would work.
Precisely what I said, glad someone else gets it.

HHSSW,

I was about to say Asher didn’t know how to do that… but then… Lasciel could remedy that quite rapidly.
I don't see Hannah Ascher surviving as she was so new at the Denarian angle. But then again, I didn't think the Genoskwa survived and here we are. Anything's possible I guess.
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24358
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2022, 10:57:54 AM »
Quote
River Shoulders and the Genoskwa are very tough beings, but I don't see how either of them could survive the impact of that much mass without magical assistance beyond their normal means.

Or Ursiel is compatible to Sasquatches, Genoskwa did die, the coin ejected, picked up by another Sasquatch, who becomes Genoskwa. I think way back when Nic tossed Lasciel's coin Harry's way, that he said something about choosing the right coin for the specific host.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2022, 03:38:55 PM »
It’s separation  the host from the coin that is required, that may be an instant brain death scenario. The Noose lets Nick get away with it, Lartessa most likely found her own work around. If in her insect form she is a genuine hive mind with her consciousness split between the brains  of the insects, she only needs one insect to remain in contact with the coin for her to be able to regenerate wholly even if the rest of her insects are destroyed.

I suspect the Hellhounds enhanced senses may include a shark like ability to sense the nervous systems of others, he seems to be able to see in the dark but probably has a whole host of unnatural senses and such an ability would be useful against illusion casters,  if so he would have been aiming at the perceived seat of conscious in each Denarian, so even if for example they in shape shifted form had relocated their brain from their “head” to another part of their anatomy he would aim there.

Most hosts I think were not smart enough to realise this, or carry this out and frankly the Denarian didn’t care as a new host would be along any moment.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2022, 06:44:17 PM »
Butcher set up the rules to make it hard to kill anything in the Files.  Ursiel's host died easily enough when his head fell off. It was getting close enough to kill him without dying that was the problem. Since he's human Harry couldn't use magic.  And that is the crux of it, the host is human. Nicodemus is the only one who can take a licking and keep on ticking.

If your going to call me out for not differentiating between the host and his Fallen somebody needs to tell Butcher to get square on Thorned Namshiel.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24358
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2022, 07:38:58 PM »
Butcher set up the rules to make it hard to kill anything in the Files.  Ursiel's host died easily enough when his head fell off. It was getting close enough to kill him without dying that was the problem. Since he's human Harry couldn't use magic.  And that is the crux of it, the host is human. Nicodemus is the only one who can take a licking and keep on ticking.

If your going to call me out for not differentiating between the host and his Fallen somebody needs to tell Butcher to get square on Thorned Namshiel.

Possible that Namshiel and Marcone came to an arrangement, kind of like Nic and Andriel, and that Lasciel said she could arrange with Harry..

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2376
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2022, 04:28:48 AM »
... I mean cmon. If he healed himself quick ,( still don't see friggin how!) Then he could've gotten her out of that rubble ...
Did we actually ever see the "getting crushed"?  I don't think we (Harry) actually had line-of-sight.

Hypothetically, he could have survived the same way Harry survived killing the Ik -- Harry opened a Harry-sized gate and let the tons of Ik-and-Harry-crushing nevernever matter go "somewhere" into the mortal world as evaporating ectoplasm.  BOHS just crouches down (behind another block of ice, blocking Harry's LOS), opens a quick gate, and lets the gate chew a BOHS-sized chunk out of the block; when they smash together, there's a hollow inside!

... He's strong but I'm not sure if subtly magic is his forte.

BOHS veiled really really well (Molly & senior-council level veil) for a long time, in the warehouse.  And Harry has repeatedly called veils complex and subtle things.  He also did something too subtle/complex for Harry to understand, blocking & grounding Harry's magic when Harry tried to nail him.

I think in terms of raw ability & training, BOHS' magic can do most of what Harry's magic can do; probably all of what Harry's magic can do.

Harry's advantage is in level-headed thinking and planning.

And a lot of plot-armor (much of which takes the form of planning, & level-headed thinking in a crisis).

« Last Edit: April 08, 2022, 04:41:39 AM by g33k »

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2376
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2022, 04:47:38 AM »
... So the Hellhound uses a few sniper round, Eldest Gruff blows away one or two, etc ...

I think you underestimate Eldest Gruff & the Hellhound, there.

I think Harry got off easy, and didn't realize that -- sometimes -- his allies are just as far above his pay-grade as his enemies are!

Offline Ed0517

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 610
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2022, 10:00:58 AM »
With the exception of Nicodemus the Nicklehead's aren't that hard to kill.  Ursiel dies the first time in Blood Rites.  Separate the head from the body and they die. Destroy the head and they die. And so on. And he stole the idea from the Highlander, whose writer stole it from someone else.

But if Butcher wants to raise him from the dead all it takes is a word processor and the desire. At this rate I expect a party with all the quasi dead people of the  Dresden Files in attendance.

Doesn't have to be decapitation, but it has to be quick. Eldest Gruff kills a denarian (Magog, maybe?) on the island without a decapitation. But it was a single shot. EG is well up the power ladder, I'd be thinking roughly Lea? 

I think Hades might be involved. He claims the dead in his realm. Nic killing his daughter, she is not coming back. But not for a keepsake coin. TWG wants them in circulation, and I think Hades trophy room is likely too far off the beaten path.  But Hades can likely refuse the soul and put it back in the body, and open a gate out. Hades is probably stronger than anyone we have seen other than Uriel, the Mothers, and HWWB. Odin isn't that class any more. 

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2022, 01:39:17 PM »
I think you underestimate Eldest Gruff & the Hellhound, there.

I think Harry got off easy, and didn't realize that -- sometimes -- his allies are just as far above his pay-grade as his enemies are!

I wonder if the Hellound SHOT the coin out of the Denarian. That would do it probably.