Author Topic: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp  (Read 25387 times)

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24361
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2022, 11:06:35 AM »
When is dead, dead, in the Dresden Files?  I can write any number of scenarios that work.  But what was the point of killing him if you are just going to resurrect him?

Death loses its gravitas if it is never, really final.  Murphy got killed. Butcher uses it for the emotional punch.  And then he resurrects her.  The whole scene with Rudolph turns out to be about Harry losing his shit because Rudolph made his girlfriend go away. Not because she died, because, well, she didn't.

No, she is dead, what comes back if she does, won't be Murphy.. Look like her maybe, but not her.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #76 on: April 19, 2022, 03:37:58 PM »
She is where her soul is. At the moment that is walhalla.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline CrusherJen

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 101
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #77 on: April 19, 2022, 03:57:25 PM »
Murphy got killed. Butcher uses it for the emotional punch.  And then he resurrects her.  The whole scene with Rudolph turns out to be about Harry losing his shit because Rudolph made his girlfriend go away. Not because she died, because, well, she didn't.

To be fair, at that point in the story when Harry loses it, he had no idea Karrin would be Chosen. As far as he knew in that moment, she was D-E-D, dead. So Harry's Roaring Rampage of Revenge really was about her dying, not just "going away." He (and the readers) don't know better until pretty much the end of the novel. It may change the perception of the act in retrospect, but not the initial motivation for it... if you catch my drift.

Yeah, I know it's a tiny point to quibble over, but I think the nuance is important. We're supposed to see Harry stumble in a moment of extreme strain, when he's experiencing one of his worst losses in the series so far. He loses love, he loses faith, he loses hope; all that's left is pain and hate, until he gets a wake-up call from Butters' Sword. I think we're meant to take that seriously, as a warning of what Harry could become if he steps off the "path of Good." I don't think that really changes when we learn things weren't exactly as dire as Harry thought they were at that point.

Does it cheapen death as a threat in the series when Murphy isn't really D-E-D dead? Well... kind of, yes, depending on the reader's perspective. Coming back from the dead isn't unusual in fantasy works. We've seen Harry do it, more or less; we also got enough hints sprinkled through the narrative foreshadowing the concept (Murphy as an avenging angel in Dresden's Sight; her training with the Einherjar; her call sign "Valkyrie") that this wasn't a total shock. I'm kind of neutral on it until I see what Butcher does with this set-up. I have a feeling we're just about out of get-out-of-Death-free cards, this close to the Endgame... and the next heroic deaths are going to hurt that much more because of it. But as always, YMMV.
"An errand is getting a tank of gas or picking up a carton of milk or something. It is not getting chased by flying purple pyromaniac gorillas hurling incendiary poo."   --from Blood Rites

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #78 on: April 19, 2022, 05:33:31 PM »
WOJ has it that Odin has access to soul fire (exclusively the gift of the White God) and it is used to make Einenjharen.

This suggests that the Einenjharen are not like zombies or Blamps, their resurrection is genuine within certain limitations i.e. living memory and living only so long as Odin does (they all die with Odin at Ragnarok).

This means Harry will get to see Murphy die again.

However HARRY has soul fire and is destined to break all the Laws of Magic so Harry might give Murphy a second resurrection and she will then live as long as Harry.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #79 on: April 19, 2022, 06:54:04 PM »
To be fair, at that point in the story when Harry loses it, he had no idea Karrin would be Chosen. As far as he knew in that moment, she was D-E-D, dead. So Harry's Roaring Rampage of Revenge really was about her dying, not just "going away."
(click to show/hide)
Murphy needed to die. If or no other reason then that time is creeping for Harry and zooming for her. But he couldn't just kill her and let it have the weight it deserved. And he's going to milk it going forward for emotions that I won't bring to the table because of what I know as a reader.

I even think I know narrative purpose behind it. Remember the sword can only act against evil, not just rage. And when it burned him it smelled of brimstone.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #80 on: April 19, 2022, 07:00:31 PM »
As far as I can see Murphy is just dead. We have been informed about her afterlife, that is all.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24361
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #81 on: April 19, 2022, 09:48:39 PM »
As far as I can see Murphy is just dead. We have been informed about her afterlife, that is all.

I agree and the bit about her not returning till she has passed out of all living memory, is a kindness in my opinion to those who ever loved her.  Sorry but if she spends a couple of centuries in Valhalla among the chosen warriors, she will not be the woman Harry remembers, not even remotely.  I think it is more of the hope of her fans than the reality that Jim is going to write.  And yeah, by the time he gets around to writing her return, a lot of us will be dead or so old, she will have passed from our memory.

Actually I think Thomas has a better chance of returning to Harry as still his brother than Murphy does, his lover.  Poor Harry, he got a one, two gut punch, is it any wonder that he lost it for a moment?

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #82 on: April 19, 2022, 11:26:47 PM »

I even think I know narrative purpose behind it. Remember the sword can only act against evil, not just rage. And when it burned him it smelled of brimstone.

I think Lucifer put his finger on the scale there, to turn Harry to the dark side. It isn’t the first time and it is one of the reasons the Knights were there. Rudy was the devil’s tool. Harry is immune to Outsider influence, but Lucifer is the ultimate Insider. Thinking about it Listen is just too competent to have overlooked Mouse and check for enchantments, which means he didn’t ultimately want the Titan to win, but perhaps a dark side Harry to gain the Eye? Thrown out of the White Council at just the right time to be recruited to the Circle? With Mab and the Accords destroyed?

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #83 on: April 19, 2022, 11:48:37 PM »
Either Murphy is Murphy  or she's a monster of Vadderung's creation. It would do my heart good to know that my mother was somewhere swilling beer  with someone even if I was forbidden to see her. Which is different then not knowing and having hope replace certain knowledge.

@Conspiracy Theorist
Whatever he is his mother had a hand in it.  It didn't happen by accident.  That's lore.


Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24361
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2022, 02:46:12 AM »
Quote
Either Murphy is Murphy  or she's a monster of Vadderung's creation. It would do my heart good to know that my mother was somewhere swilling beer  with someone even if I was forbidden to see her. Which is different then not knowing and having hope replace certain knowledge.

No, Murphy is dead, she isn't even getting the reward that her Catholic Faith promised her.  I wouldn't call her a monster either, she is now one of Odin's warriors.  You think the Einenjharen that we have met didn't have hope or certain knowledge at one time?  That they didn't have people that they loved or had values important to them?  That they fought for? They did, just like Murphy, but now their employer is Odin, farmed out to Marcone, they still owe their alliance to Odin.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2022, 06:44:35 AM »
Murphy’s catholic afterlife is merely diverted, once the tie to Odin is broken she’s going to be shepherded to her afterlife, likely by the angel of death we saw Ghost Story. Not so sure about Harry, it’s not like Michael and Charity where they can be sure where they will end up together. No such happy ending for Harry.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2022, 09:10:40 AM »
Either Murphy is Murphy  or she's a monster of Vadderung's creation. It would do my heart good to know that my mother was somewhere swilling beer  with someone even if I was forbidden to see her. Which is different then not knowing and having hope replace certain knowledge.
Everything points to her being Murphy, it is a real afterlife. Just not the catholic one.

WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24361
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2022, 10:47:24 AM »
Everything points to her being Murphy, it is a real afterlife. Just not the catholic one.

What points to her being Murphy?  That because she died a heroic warrior and was sent to Valhalla
she will remain Murphy?  Maybe that part of her, but she was a more complicated person than that.
Also as many like to say, Jim likes to make Harry and the reader suffer.. What better way to make both Harry and her fans suffer big time, but for her body to come back, but her mind totally changed.. 

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #88 on: April 20, 2022, 11:27:40 AM »
Everything points to her being Murphy, it is a real afterlife. Just not the catholic one.


I would agree with that if they hadn't taken the body.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24361
    • View Profile
Re: How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp
« Reply #89 on: April 20, 2022, 01:53:35 PM »
I would agree with that if they hadn't taken the body.

And if Murphy comes back more or less unchanged, so should Hendricks.  If that was really possible I doubt that we would have seen the grieved reaction from Gard that we saw.  She knows the rules, more importantly the rules that not even Odin can break.  If she could pull strings to get Hendricks back, she would do so.