How the hell did Blood on his Soul survive being mulched to a pulp

[forumghost]

More than likely, also we don't know exactly when the Shadow of Lasciel got it on with Harry's alter ego.  Up until her complete break, which was just at the end when she sacrificed herself for Harry, Lash was still in contact with the coin.  Let's not forget her final try to get Harry to accept the coin in White Night, so Lasciel would have known about the sex, most likely encouraged it, and yes, knew about the pregnancy as well.

That wasn't a thing.

Id!Harry directly states in Skin Game that Bonnie was 'conceived' by Lash sacrificing herself as an act of Love.

Though I suppose that might be another way  she could have known- to an entity like her, what happened in the Raith deeps was probably as obvious as 'insert tab a into slot b' would be to humans.

I bet that's why nobody told Harry about his condition-

Bob: "What do you want me to say Harry, you can't keep run around making loving self-sacrifices unprotected and not expect this to happen. I mean honestly..."

[Mira]

Bob: "What do you want me to say Harry, you can't keep run around making loving self-sacrifices unprotected and not expect this to happen. I mean honestly..."

To me that sounds a little bit too ambiguous, Bob may say that but it doesn't mean that Bonnie was a direct result of Lash's sacrifice for Harry.  We know from the earlier books, both in conversations with his Id and with the Shadow before she changed to Lash, that the Id and Lasciel's Shadow were very close and agreed on things that Harry did not as far as cooperating with the Shadow of Lasciel is concerned.

[morriswalters]

The Fallen is a someone and she tells Harry  so in PG.

“The portion of me that shares your mind is nothing but the shadow of my true self,” Lasciel said. “But have a care, mortal. I am. I exist. And I desire to continue to do so.”

While Butcher could write in the ability for any Fallen to summon the coin of any other Fallen sets up the amusing possibility of the Fallen playing a game of kill the horse by summoning the rider.

We have no reason to believe that Michael was wrong with the exception of Harry. In Harry's case the Shadow was supposed to be burned out. This doesn't prove that Michael was mistaken. It's used as a plot point to drive the uncertainty about Harry's allegiance in Small Favor.

If you control the mind you control reality. Try this on for size.  If you are  Lash and you are ordered to wreck LC, all a shadow need do is alter the reality of what her host sees and does. Have the host tell Bob to not see it and there you go. And you thought you were ordering steak at the steakhouse.

And then do a replay in White Knight. Have Lash decide the best way to keep the taste of freedom that she's found is to let the curse burn out the parts that tie her to the Fallen. She gets put into the real world with a darling skull of her own. That is one way of affecting reality.

[Mira]

And then do a replay in White Knight. Have Lash decide the best way to keep the taste of freedom that she's found is to let the curse burn out the parts that tie her to the Fallen. She gets put into the real world with a darling skull of her own. That is one way of affecting reality.

That is a possibility, but while Bonnie may really be Lash, she isn't Lasciel's Shadow either.

We have no reason to believe that Michael was wrong with the exception of Harry. In Harry's case the Shadow was supposed to be burned out. This doesn't prove that Michael was mistaken. It's used as a plot point to drive the uncertainty about Harry's allegiance in Small Favor.

Yes, Michael's doubts or claim that it had never happened before was meant to keep us in suspense. However with the gift of Soul Fire from Uriel, all doubts were done away with.  Here is one for you, seemingly in contradiction, what if Lash, then Bonnie are really Lasciel as she was before her fall?

If you control the mind you control reality. Try this on for size.  If you are  Lash and you are ordered to wreck LC, all a shadow need do is alter the reality of what her host sees and does. Have the host tell Bob to not see it and there you go. And you thought you were ordering steak at the steakhouse.

That wouldn't be a shock since the Shadow of Lasciel convinced Harry's mind that he was seeing a woman named Shelia and if it weren't for Butters convincing Harry that there was no one there, things might have turned out very differently.

[forumghost]

To me that sounds a little bit too ambiguous, Bob may say that but it doesn't mean that Bonnie was a direct result of Lash's sacrifice for Harry.

The bit about bob was just me making a joke, sorry if that was unclear. The one that tells Harry Bonnie came from Lash's self sacrifice was actually Id!Harry himself in their dream conversation in Skin Game.

As for the rest, I really feel like you're stretching the extent to which Id!Harry is his own entity and not just Dresden being a bit loose in the head and having existential dream talks with himself.

That part's just my opinion though.

[Mira]

As for the rest, I really feel like you're stretching the extent to which Id!Harry is his own entity and not just Dresden being a bit loose in the head and having existential dream talks with himself.

In a sense the Id,is his own entity, lets not forget back in Fool Moon I think it was when we first meet him, he is a very different Harry from the one we know.  I wouldn't be shocked if that is the Harry we meet in Mirror Mirror..

[BrainFireBob]

In a sense the Id,is his own entity, lets not forget back in Fool Moon I think it was when we first meet him, he is a very different Harry from the one we know.  I wouldn't be shocked if that is the Harry we meet in Mirror Mirror..

I have an entire theory that DuMorne did not fail in creating a thrall out of Harry, and to cover the corrupted "real" Harry he created a fake overlay personality- which has now been in the driver's seat longer than the "real" Harry and is its own being, and the main character of the Dresden files.

idHarry would then be "original" Harry. Similar, interested in the survival of thrall-Harry, but not quite the same being. It would explain why Harry hasn't backslid as a warlock- the backlash affected real Harry, not constructed Harry. It'd go into a lot of the philosophy of mind fun stuff, and put a whole different spin on Uriel's interactions with Harry.

I'm not firmly attached to it, but Butcher has left himself room to go that way. It possibly, in a less interesting way, explains some of his incorruptibility by beings like Lasciel- he's actually bound in terms of some of the choices he *can* make- and it would explain Bob's explanation about how a fine thrall could function theoretically forever without knowing it's a thrall.

[Mira]

  Or if you go back to the original Star Trek that gave Jim the idea for Mirror Mirror, to be a strong leader a person needs both sides.. Harry's Id is much more his dark side, he is more assertive and doesn't seem to have much of a conscience.

[forumghost]

Or maybe it's just Harry having a weird dream to muddle through shit where he talks to an imaginary friend version of himself because he's nucking futs.

Personally I hate the idea of Id being an actual, separate entity viscerally, so I'd rather just move on. Nobody is going to convince anyone otherwise there.

[morriswalters]

Harry's had so many people wandering around in his head he needs a traffic cop to keep order. It's overused and Butcher needs to give it a rest. But currently he seems not to be disposed that way.

[Mira]

Harry's had so many people wandering around in his head he needs a traffic cop to keep order. It's overused and Butcher needs to give it a rest. But currently he seems not to be disposed that way.

I agree,

[Arjan]

Harry's had so many people wandering around in his head he needs a traffic cop to keep order. It's overused and Butcher needs to give it a rest. But currently he seems not to be disposed that way.

It is a consequence of his world building and how Harry blunders around everything. As soon as you give part of yourself spiritual mass and agency it can potentially split of and become something else.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Just like Evil Bob.

[Ed0517]

We have no reason to believe that Michael was wrong with the exception of Harry.

Maybe other Denarian-infected people did not have the opportunity to experience that psychic attack, which allows the Shadow to free itself FROM the host, and live it's own existence? The psychic bullets shattered Lash's handcuffs tying her to Harry. She was now free to grow, and trusted Harry would find a midwife of sorts to let her free to live. Harry now free, Lash now free. The old people were like trying to separate conjoined twins... until the right case came along, with suitable support, it was not likely to be successful. Physical attempts could not part the pairs, and we normals are rarely in a position to face magic. But now, a wizard faced magic, and the parasite had had time to grow stronger herself, so... viability? 

[Mira]

Maybe other Denarian-infected people did not have the opportunity to experience that psychic attack, which allows the Shadow to free itself FROM the host, and live it's own existence? The psychic bullets shattered Lash's handcuffs tying her to Harry. She was now free to grow, and trusted Harry would find a midwife of sorts to let her free to live. Harry now free, Lash now free. The old people were like trying to separate conjoined twins... until the right case came along, with suitable support, it was not likely to be successful. Physical attempts could not part the pairs, and we normals are rarely in a position to face magic. But now, a wizard faced magic, and the parasite had had time to grow stronger herself, so... viability?

It is my opinion that it was Butters who really saved Harry in this case, that, and the soul gaze he had with a Denarian the first time he encountered them in Death Masks.  The soul gaze showed him what the host is really going through, Harry wanted no part of that.  Butters made him aware that Sheila was an illusion, then he realized that the Shadow of Lasciel was in his head. Then his will took over and he was able to resist and finally change her.