Starborn - Generals used to control the Outsider Armies or weapons to fight them

[morriswalters]

I think it's a bit of an exaggeration.  Harry accepts Michael's judgement for the most part, he did trust Murphy's until she died, I think he'd trust Mac as well.  He has shown moderation in his judgement as far as the prison and handling the artifacts go.  Yes, he totally lost it after he saw the woman he loved senselessly gunned down, which is understandable.

The statement is about why he is feared not about what he would do.  He's lied to anybody and everybody at one point in the story or another, either by omission or commission. Outside looking in, Harry is a big, tall, ugly can of mayhem ready to go off in somebodies face. It is what Butcher has both written into the story and what he says in the WOJ's. That he has warm feelings for puppies and kittens isn't the point.

[Mira]

The statement is about why he is feared not about what he would do.  He's lied to anybody and everybody at one point in the story or another, either by omission or commission. Outside looking in, Harry is a big, tall, ugly can of mayhem ready to go off in somebodies face. It is what Butcher has both written into the story and what he says in the WOJ's. That he has warm feelings for puppies and kittens isn't the point.

I disagree, as far as how the story is written.. I wouldn't characterize Harry as a habitual liar. Considering what he has been subjected to, he has shown quite a lot of restraint as well.  As to why he is feared, that is a perception issue, and those have been wrong on a number of occasions, often the first words out of a foe's mouth if Harry is fighting someone, is Harry isn't what they thought he was on a number of levels.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Hell is not United, Lucifer put the 30 Fallen he least trusted into the Denarius, and of those 30 at least one is betraying the rest and working with Black Council, unless Lucifer put the 29 he least trusted and the one he most trusted in the Denarius, and his spy is his liaison with the Black Council.

Lucifer may have set the Denarians up as misdirection, they tie up the Swords and people’s attention with Nicky’s schemes whilst Lucifer plays the long game,  using mortals like Cowl to work through his plan where Uriel can’t thwart him.

For all we know Listen is Lucifers pet Starborn, a double agent placed in the Fomor to turn or destroy Harry as an aside to the destruction of the Accords. It was his idea to attack the Carpenters after all why would Ethnui bother about one petty wizard? While I am of the school that Rudy was the Merlin’s dupe, he could easily have been Listens dupe and therefore Lucifers by proxy, cannon fodder to be murdered by Harry.

[HeWhoSucksAtWalking]

Simple enough question..The WC seems to fear Harry like he's Darth Vader. My question is if the whole Starborn system was infact  put in place by the Old Ones or Outsiders to lead their armies since only Mortal Magic can summon them here ( also given they seem to be able exert some control over the Outsiders . Then at some point the whole system was hijacked at some point by the accorded nations.. Thoughts?

Sure it was his idea to attack the Carpenters but he's seen enough fairy bullshit to see through. I keep going back to what Ethnui said as Harry Binded her

"So you're saying that Listen betrayed me"

Maybe he did. Who knows

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Listen is probably alive and free Ethnui, not so much. If he was Black Council then they were using Ethnui and the Fomor, in much the same way they used the Red Court.

Molly didn’t use a glamour in the traditional sense, of an illusion, she created simulacra bodies like she did for Harry, and that was good enough to fool Eb.

[Yuillegan]

The Accords are very recent, only set up in last hundred years or so if memory serves.

The Starborn cycle has been going on since around the beginning of Creation. So I can't really see the Accords having much sway. They were clearly set up in the same way the EU or NATO was set up i.e. to form a bloc to protect itself against stronger powers. Considering the memberships, that really says a lot. Considering Mab was the one to set it up, it almost certainly was about the Outsider threat.

While it's possible the Accords want to control their own starborn, I think it's clear enough that they wouldn't share with one another (and would rather execute said being than see it be claimed by another). Clearly the power that starborns represent is significant enough to warrant such things.

We know that the starborn conjunction happens to occur every 666 years, and we are aware of the connection of that number with Hell. However, I doubt Lucifer would only have one starborn that he would pay attention to. In fact, I think he is the architect of the starborns (either directly or otherwise). Until we know a bit more about starborns it's difficult to gauge what the purpose of their creation is. That said, we do know that Lucifer is against the Outsiders and he doesn't want Creation to end. He is having a...philosophical argument with The White God about Creation, and that argument requires a Creation to exist to argue about. According to Jim, he's bent the universe out of shape in the course of this argument.

I do like the idea though that Lucifer's left hand is the Denarians and his right hand is the Black Council or something along those lines. That would be quite sneaky. I am not sure that is what's happening but that's got the true ring of politics about it.

"So you're saying that Listen betrayed me"

Maybe he did. Who knows

My reading was that Ethniu couldn't see the forest for the trees i.e. she couldn't understand that Harry and Co. had beaten her, and assumed the only way it could have happened was treachery rather than being out-thought and out-played. She had to pin it on Listen rather than realising Harry might just be smarter/trickier than her. Scratch that, than Molly might have been smarter/trickier than Ethniu. She was the one who swaps out the bodies, and made sure there was no Mouse to ensure Harry would not be fooled. Something only Harry would realise. Ethniu, and those like her, can't understand humans because they don't have human fears, human connections, human cares. It's why Ethniu forgot the dog, and why her servants wouldn't have realised the decoy.

[Mira]

My reading was that Ethniu couldn't see the forest for the trees i.e. she couldn't understand that Harry and Co. had beaten her, and assumed the only way it could have happened was treachery rather than being out-thought and out-played. She had to pin it on Listen rather than realising Harry might just be smarter/trickier than her. Scratch that, than Molly might have been smarter/trickier than Ethniu. She was the one who swaps out the bodies, and made sure there was no Mouse to ensure Harry would not be fooled. Something only Harry would realise. Ethniu, and those like her, can't understand humans because they don't have human fears, human connections, human cares. It's why Ethniu forgot the dog, and why her servants wouldn't have realised the decoy.

Let us just say it was a team effort, even Marcone had a part to play in her defeat.  I think it was the team effort part that Ethniu couldn't conceive, between the Eye and her confidence she didn't think she could be beaten.  She also wanted to maximize the pain directed at the Winter Court to both it's Lady and it's Knight.  Molly did foresee that and acted accordingly, at that point Ethniu needed a scapegoat for her own mistakes, so naturally she claimed that Listen betrayed her.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Lucifer wants creation HIS way, the Outsiders want to end creation. A being like Ethnui would survive the end of creation, she was there before it began, it explains so much of her attitude she certainly would ally with the Outsiders even if she wasn’t telling the Fomor this.

I think Drakul is in the “wants creation HIS way” camp but doesn’t mean he is working with Lucifer. Both see the current cycle as a way to remove the White God and usurp his position, through Drakul might be happy to usurp Lucifers position as a fallback, until he can take down the big guy. We have learnt that nature abhors a power vacuum by the way the Fomor rose to replace the Red Court.

Both Lucifer and Drakul are therefore happy to use the Outsiders and Ethnui for their ends they win whether she won or not, she starts the destruction of humanity eroding the White Gods power in a universe vulnerable to the Outsiders.

We might therefore have a cycle resolved where Harry saves the day killing or converting Lucifer back to the White God, but where Drakul becomes Archangel powerful replacing Lucifer, waiting for the next cycle. If you think about it the entire Black Court is a mockery of the resurrection, Drakul is deeply envious of the White God.

[Yuillegan]

Lucifer wants creation HIS way, the Outsiders want to end creation. A being like Ethnui would survive the end of creation, she was there before it began, it explains so much of her attitude she certainly would ally with the Outsiders even if she wasn’t telling the Fomor this.

I think Drakul is in the “wants creation HIS way” camp but doesn’t mean he is working with Lucifer. Both see the current cycle as a way to remove the White God and usurp his position, through Drakul might be happy to usurp Lucifers position as a fallback, until he can take down the big guy. We have learnt that nature abhors a power vacuum by the way the Fomor rose to replace the Red Court.

Both Lucifer and Drakul are therefore happy to use the Outsiders and Ethnui for their ends they win whether she won or not, she starts the destruction of humanity eroding the White Gods power in a universe vulnerable to the Outsiders.

We might therefore have a cycle resolved where Harry saves the day killing or converting Lucifer back to the White God, but where Drakul becomes Archangel powerful replacing Lucifer, waiting for the next cycle. If you think about it the entire Black Court is a mockery of the resurrection, Drakul is deeply envious of the White God.

I don't know that ANY immortal would survive the end of Creation (the end of the Multiverse). A universe ending isn't on the same scale. The big immortals exist in every universe, the smaller ones have "copies" in each universe. This is why the big ones can't intervene much.

So I don't believe the Ethniu would survive. Remember, Dresden said she is far from the biggest thing in Demonreach. Part of coming inside Creation is agreeing to it's rules (not rules like take your hate off, but rules like gravity and Halloween). Considering any immortal is mortal on Halloween if they are on Earth, in many ways just by being inside Creation they are at risk.

Perhaps their fear of the Outsiders is why they entered Creation in the first place, or perhaps they just were curious about this new thing called "time". Who knows?

That's a big call about Drakul wanting to usurp TWG. Interesting idea. If that's true though, why has no one replaced TWG in the last million cycles? Or are you saying TWG is only the current Creator, and has usurped previous Creators (including whoever actually created the multiverse)?

I do agree massively that Necromancy and the Black Court are a mockery of Christ's Resurrection, and that has been hinted at very subtly. Another reason why some believe Drakul IS Lucifer trapped in a "mortal" body. A Demon Lord would work just as well. Then again, the vampires all have weird Outsider connections so it's hard to know.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Those who existed before creation may believe they will exist after it, free from pesky restraints like linear time.

No one may have usurped TWG .....yet. Lucifer has clearly been trying since the Fall but unsuccessfully. Similarly the Outsiders have been trying to get in for the same period. Lucifer has had the Denarians in operation for the last three full cycles, but they have failed to make headway, hence this cycle he has switched it up with the Black Council.

The body that was Drakul was born before 1395 which put it slightly off for a Starborn, but hey poor record keeping, he could have been born earlier  but not aged, but means he is challenging for the first time this cycle, at least in this form.

What is changing is the guardians of the Gates. When the Denarians rose it would still have been the Roman/Greek Gods, they would have given way in the subsequent cycle to Winter, this cycle may be Winters last giving way to humanity as the guardians of the Gates, if so could this presage an end to the challenge through the cycles? Cementing the White God permanently? With humanity too numerous to be extinguished? 

By the next cycle humanity may have spread to the stars escaping Earth under its own power creating the Singularity, or as we know him The White God. That would close the circle on creation and shut the Outsiders out permanently, leaving whoever is sitting in the White God’s chair as the White God, it’s current incumbent, Lucifer or Drakul. Maybe it’s a three way battle Uriel, Lucifer And Drakul to become  The White God. Two Archangels and what?

The monster that Drakul was before Drakul may have been the biblical Leviathan, a being of both chaos and envy, and which has appeared under different names throughout history (Tiamat, Jorgamundr) It would certainly fit with WOJ on Drakul. Leviathan is oft portrayed as a dragon from the sea. Leviathan forces themself into a Starborn body which has the potential via a Darkhallow inhaling the Outsiders to reach Archangel level just at the time when the White God is about to come into existence.

[Yuillegan]

Those who existed before creation may believe they will exist after it, free from pesky restraints like linear time.

No one may have usurped TWG .....yet. Lucifer has clearly been trying since the Fall but unsuccessfully. Similarly the Outsiders have been trying to get in for the same period. Lucifer has had the Denarians in operation for the last three full cycles, but they have failed to make headway, hence this cycle he has switched it up with the Black Council.

The body that was Drakul was born before 1395 which put it slightly off for a Starborn, but hey poor record keeping, he could have been born earlier  but not aged, but means he is challenging for the first time this cycle, at least in this form.

What is changing is the guardians of the Gates. When the Denarians rose it would still have been the Roman/Greek Gods, they would have given way in the subsequent cycle to Winter, this cycle may be Winters last giving way to humanity as the guardians of the Gates, if so could this presage an end to the challenge through the cycles? Cementing the White God permanently? With humanity too numerous to be extinguished? 

By the next cycle humanity may have spread to the stars escaping Earth under its own power creating the Singularity, or as we know him The White God. That would close the circle on creation and shut the Outsiders out permanently, leaving whoever is sitting in the White God’s chair as the White God, it’s current incumbent, Lucifer or Drakul. Maybe it’s a three way battle Uriel, Lucifer And Drakul to become  The White God. Two Archangels and what?

The monster that Drakul was before Drakul may have been the biblical Leviathan, a being of both chaos and envy, and which has appeared under different names throughout history (Tiamat, Jorgamundr) It would certainly fit with WOJ on Drakul. Leviathan is oft portrayed as a dragon from the sea. Leviathan forces themself into a Starborn body which has the potential via a Darkhallow inhaling the Outsiders to reach Archangel level just at the time when the White God is about to come into existence.

Except, by entering Creation they are no longer entirely free of linear time. They are less restricted than mortals by it, but their influence is less than mortals too, so it balances out. I doubt Ethniu thought she could be defeated or even killed (although I am sure she is aware of the immortal-killing conjunctions such as Halloween, all of the immortals would be particularly as their is significant advantage too...they get to be mortal for a day and influence things a bit - high risk, high reward). But she would be mad truly to think that just because she pre-dated Creation she would always exist. We know that just isn't the case for immortals. None (except perhaps TWG) are invincible and invulnerable.

I think it's quite possible Lucifer wishes to replace TWG, I agree. I'd say the Outsiders have been trying to get in even before the Fall. Well before in fact, depending on when you think the Fall happened. Lucifer had a purpose once after all.

I like that Black Council theory, they are new. They could also just as easily be a tool of Nemesis. We'll see.

I think that assumes the body Drakul is in is the body of Vlad Dracul II of Wallachia, rather than Vlad II simply being another persona adopted by the being currently known as Drakul. The body/vessel could be from ancient times. We don't know when the "utterly inhuman being" became trapped in mortal form. We do know Drakul has been operating since the earliest days of mankind, or close to it. We also know he has held many, many personas from history (although not all famous, maybe not even most). I think he is very like Vadderung. A very powerful, elemental being that is distilled into a shape humans can more easily accept in order to deal with them. A facet of the greater being...whatever Drakul really is. It gives such beings much more leverage over destiny than they would otherwise have, at the cost of the majority of their power.

I think the Norse might have been guardians between when the Greco-Roman Gods were handling things and Winter as it currently stands.

Assuming you're right about Drakul and Lucifer wanting to be the Creator, and assuming they could usurp that role, why would Uriel try for it? What about Michael (the Archangel, and the leader of all Angels)? Or Rafael, or Gabriel? Let alone any other being? 

There is an incredibly good storyline in the Lucifer comics (a very interesting read if you ever get the chance) about this very idea. The show that was based on the comics...was a very bad adaptation (however enjoyable it may be on it's own merits). I couldn't get through much of it as it was so far from the comics, and the comics are just a far better story.

Yikes, scary thought having Drakul as Leviathan. I haven't really seen a sea-type connection...but it's intriguing.

[g33k]

I disagree, as far as how the story is written.. I wouldn't characterize Harry as a habitual liar. Considering what he has been subjected to, he has shown quite a lot of restraint as well.  As to why he is feared, that is a perception issue, and those have been wrong on a number of occasions, often the first words out of a foe's mouth if Harry is fighting someone, is Harry isn't what they thought he was on a number of levels.

I think the question isn't "who Harry is" ... how much he does/doesn't lie, how much destruction and mayhem he is/isn't OK with causing, etc.

I think the question is, "how is Harry seen?"

It depends, of course, on who's looking.  As readers, we obviously have a unique POV; nobody in the DV has our POV!

But I think it's worth noting that (at least some) people in the DV -- reasonable people; good people -- have a decidedly-negative view of Harry.  And (from their POVs) that's reasonable; they don't have our readers-eye-view of things (and, given how Harry-centric our view, we have to admit:  some of them know much more than we do!).

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Uriel because he has most to do with humans, during Skin Game he was one for while, this is where you get the anthropomorphic god rather than the Outsider reject that has been theorised for The White God and the Archangels. Form follows fact.

[g33k]

Uriel because he has most to do with humans, during Skin Game he was one for while, this is where you get the anthropomorphic god rather than the Outsider reject that has been theorised for The White God and the Archangels. Form follows fact.

I'm inclined to agree with you that Uriel's Boss isn't an Outsider; has never been.

But -- as "the Boss," the actual Author of Creation -- He could easily have made Creation such that His own agents always have the option to look human-ish, while other Outsiders just look like a HotMess².


(n.b. that's not "footnote²" but "squared²")