Star Born (direct quotes compilation)

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Odin is definitely a Pharisee, a believer in resurrection (his own first and foremost).

White Council not so much, even before Kemmler. The White Council of today is definitely not that of Merlin though.

A second coming would mean that there is a need to repeat the ritual magic to power some truly enormous spell. For that you would need the items from the Vault to be in the mortal world.....oh bugger, if I was Arjan I would be worried Harry is going to crucify Mister.

There really isn’t a Christ analogue currently whose sacrifice could power such a ritual, Harry is the son of Malcolm,  not the son of god, he would need to power up to god level to do this. Theoretically he could with a Darkhallow get to that level only to sacrifice himself, but i don’t see that myself. Could the British Prisoner be god-level,  a sacrifice in waiting? Harry having to do the sacrifice rather than be the victim would be more painful for him, Harry in the Eternal Jew/Odin role? Jim goes for the most painful for Harry.

Harry knows how to kill Immortals, has most if not all of the elements of the ritual and a hellacious powerful circle on Demonreach. So possible, with Susan being a foreshadowing.

[TrueMonk]

Well, Micheal once said he is not the carpenter who sets the standard, but maybe he is? I.e. he will be a part of the second sacrifice. Maybe that was why Uriel loaned him his grace.

Maybe in combination with all the baddies from Demonreach. Then there is power and one pure heart to bear the sins of the world.

I don't really think so, but it would be painfull.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Peace Talks page 271 Malcom is wearing a Chicago Cubs baseball cap, indicating it is is hometeam. The same memory sequence has Malcolm doing gigs in Colorado and Ohio, suggesting my earlier premise that Malcolm’s home base was Chicago and that he worked the Midwest is valid and that Harry was born there in Cook County Hospital is also valid. This may suggest that the Mug from Christmas Eve was actually stored by a friend/theatrical agent of Malcom based in Chicago and that there is a hoard of Dresden memorabilia to be uncovered by Harry.

[Mira]

Peace Talks page 271 Malcom is wearing a Chicago Cubs baseball cap, indicating it is is hometeam. The same memory sequence has Malcolm doing gigs in Colorado and Ohio, suggesting my earlier premise that Malcolm’s home base was Chicago and that he worked the Midwest is valid and that Harry was born there in Cook County Hospital is also valid. This may suggest that the Mug from Christmas Eve was actually stored by a friend/theatrical agent of Malcom based in Chicago and that there is a hoard of Dresden memorabilia to be uncovered by Harry.

It could all be as you say, but I prefer to call it a Christmas miracle..

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Of course the memory could have been implanted in Harry in the first place by Mab, and the Mug was bought from a crappy craft shop the day before to be given by Kringle to Harry to keep him sane.

But Mab wouldn’t do that to Harry....would she?

[Conspiracy Theorist]

There’s another Destroyer quote in Battle Ground page 51

“Be comforted, my Knight: I chose you for times precisely such as these, when an elemental of destruction is what is most needed.”

(-No using red please, mod team )

So the White Council and Mab clearly know what he is a Destroyer, an elemental of destruction which likely comes from the Sacred game as the primary weapon of one is fire and force. In classical terms Harry is a Salamander. It’s weaknesses are ice and poison. Could the Winter Mantle actually be a moderating influence on Harry’s elemental nature, channeling it and that is the struggle he has with it? Creating a balance in some respects whilst it creates an imbalance in others?

[Mira]

There’s another Destroyer quote in Battle Ground page 51

“Be comforted, my Knight: I chose you for times precisely such as these, when an elemental of destruction is what is most needed.”

So the White Council and Mab clearly know what he is a Destroyer, an elemental of destruction which likely comes from the Sacred game as the primary weapon of one is fire and force. In classical terms Harry is a Salamander. It’s weaknesses are ice and poison. Could the Winter Mantle actually be a moderating influence on Harry’s elemental nature, channeling it and that is the struggle he has with it? Creating a balance in some respects whilst it creates an imbalance in others?

Or she wants him to be, she continues to manipulate him to be..  But his has Uriel's seven words to balance him out.  It isn't the mantle that balances Harry, it is the personality of his father that he inherited that balances Harry and makes him different from other star born.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

It’s several things I think pulling Harry in several different directions to create a balance, the Mantle, Soulfire, Maggie and his family, his Elemental Nature, Demonreach it’s the pentagram all over again, because he is Starborn. Knock out one or more and you don’t have Harry. Ethnui knew this so she attacked his who whole father/child issues.

Alt Harry in MM only has his elemental nature, unbalanced.

From Battle Ground by Mab p53-54.

“Immortality offers a significant advantage, but it is no substitute for intelligence. Remember that, young wizard.” Ebenezar scowled and opened his mouth. “Should it for some bizarre reason ever be necessary,” Mab said smoothly, before he could speak.”

Immortality is on the table for Harry, but not for everyone see the Darkhallow. A successful Darkhallow requires a Starborn? But the Darkhallow only magnifies that which is already there.

This makes me think that it is easier to gain immortality through a Mantle rather than through any other means.

[Mira]

  Immortality doesn't appeal to everyone though, and at this point anyway, I don't see that
it appeals to Harry all that much.  It was a possible selling point for accepting Lasciel's
coin, and he didn't.  There is no joy in immortality if all your nearest and dearest are mortal
and age and die around you.  Friends and relations are important to Harry.   Immortality isn't a substitute for intelligence, but one can hope that with the added centuries some wisdom is gained.  I think she has been around for so long and in a position of power for so long that Mab no longer understands what Eb was trying to say.  Also perhaps like a lot of highly intelligent people for whom things come easy along with power, she has no understanding for ordinary mortals save for how to exploit them.

This makes me think that it is easier to gain immortality through a Mantle rather than through any other means.

I think that is the only way for an ordinary mortal to gain immortality.  Wizards naturally live a much longer life span that vanilla humans, but eventually even they grow older and die.  Denarians are the closest I think to ordinary humans gaining immortality as long as they keep the coin.  The Holy Knights are mere mortals like the rest of us, even if they remain Knights for years like Michael and Shiro, eventually get old and will die someday.  I'm not sure whether or not White Court Vampires are immortal, they live a very long time, but I don't remember it being said they are immortal.  I don't think either the Summer or Winter Knight mantle gives immortality along with it, because the Knights remain mortals, they are not transformed into Fae like the Queens.  So in the case of Molly, she gained immortality with her Lady's Mantel, but the price for it may be her soul.

[morriswalters]

Reading through I had an ugly thought and I hope I'm wrong. Butcher's going to combine necromancy and Starborn's, in Mirror Mirror. The long and the short seems straight forward enough.  Starborn's are life powerups for other Starborn's.  MM Harry is eating other Harry's to stay alive when he should die. Kinda like Kemmler.

[TrueMonk]

Harry would not have become immortal by picking up the coin. At least the other Denarians do not seem to be immortal because they are dying all the time. Maybe Blood on his Soul (or what the name of the evil Bigfoot was) is immortal, but it is not from the coin, since his first host died just fine.

The list of immortal "people" is pretty short.

[Mira]

Harry would not have become immortal by picking up the coin. At least the other Denarians do not seem to be immortal because they are dying all the time. Maybe Blood on his Soul (or what the name of the evil Bigfoot was) is immortal, but it is not from the coin, since his first host died just fine.

The list of immortal "people" is pretty short.

Let me expand that, immortal as long as they hold a coin.. Nic has been alive for about 2,000 years give or take, yet he started out as a mortal man, as long as he holds Andriel's coin and wears that noose around his neck, he remains immortal..  I go by Tolkien's rules for elves, they live forever unless killed.  Denarians can be killed, when struck down, they lose their coin, and then they die.  They stay quite healthy and don't age, unless they give up their coin, then they begin to age to their true age, as Cassius found out.

[TrueMonk]

But that is not immortal. There is lots of creatures in the series that do not age. All of the vampires as far as I can tell. And all the fairies. Immortal is when you can get cut into a thousand pieces and get better. Or be beaten in a duel with a titan and still deliver presents for Christmas (unless you get blasted with the eye that is special because it can kill immortals)

[morriswalters]

Immortal means you might never die, not that you can't be killed, and Mab tells Harry as much when she say she is immortal but not eternal.

[BrainFireBob]

It's never been stated where he was born...but considering Chicago is the centre of everything I would say it's more likely than not.

If you think about it in a Doylist sense working backwards, where else makes sense? Where else would you put 40,000 beings that is also significant to the series?

That rules out locations important only to Harry (e.g. Hog's Hollow or whatever). Harry's early years are very vague - we don't know where Margaret was when Harry was born (although likely this is kept secret for a reason). However, given that Lord Raith the White King was in Chicago with Margaret Le Fay (at one of the White Court's main locations at the Raith Chateau) - he even has a picture of her there, and her other son spent most (if not all his life in Chicago) - it seems more likely than not.

But I am open to other suggestions.

I did a back of envelope sonewhere else on here.

It's a window of time. When Harry was born- circa 1970- that number represents something like a half hour or hour (I misremember) of births.