Author Topic: Merlin, Building the Island, and the Family Dresden  (Read 8557 times)

Offline Mira

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Merlin, Building the Island, and the Family Dresden
« on: January 12, 2022, 05:29:42 PM »


 Here is the passages from Cold Days describing the build; pages 169-169
First thing, if he did indeed travel in time to build the Island, Merlin arrived via the Nevernever
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Then a ribbon of light maybe eight feet long split the air vertically.  The light broadened until it was maybe three feet wide, and then a figure appeared through it. I recognized the signs---someone had opened a Way, a passage from the Nevernever to the island.
This was Merlin, I bolded the last because this is important information Harry is going to need now to travel to the island and back.  It could be the one Rashid uses or another.

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The grey-clad figure became a blur.  It walked about waving its arms, and directed oceans of energy here and there, settling them all in and around the substance of the island itself.

This continues for some time apparently because on the next page;

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A LOT OF TIME PASSES.

Here is the important bit about it's building

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"Merlin didn't build the prison five times," Bob said.  "He built it once. In five different
times.  All at the same time."

This blew Harry's mind.  Bob explained further;
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"Look, a mortal jail is built in three dimensions,right?  Merlin built this one in four, and probably in several more, though you can't really tell whether or not he built it in a given dimension until you go there and measure it, and the act of measuring it will change it.

Here is another interesting bit, the enchantments, I will only copy the first line or two, but you get the picture it goes on to page 170 talking about enchantments on top of enchantments..

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The shot zoomed out rising up to give a top-down view of the island,which became a blurry shape. A familiar five-pointed star blazed itself across the surface of the lake, its lines so long that the pentagon shape at its center enfolded the island entirely  
It goes on and repeats thousands of times over in different directions over different dimensions.

Okay, I bolded this bit because what does Harry wear around his neck? What does Thomas and Eb wear?  A pentagon.  Now a pentagon maybe a standard thing in this kind of enchantment, and the fact that the Dresden family also wear one is a coincidence.. Or maybe not so much, if you couple that with the journals in Eb's possession that have been handed down for centuries and hinted to go back as far as Merlin... One more connection, Merlin emerged from the Nevernever, he had opened a Way, Margaret spent a lot of time in the Nevernever, and oh just happens to have a jewel that is the gps to all the Ways, which Harry also inherits from her.. Oh and one final intriguing bit, in Small Favor, though he'd had never stepped foot on the island before, he felt like he had walked on it's steps before.. 

So here goes, as many of us suspect the Dresden family are direct decedents of Merlin.  Merlin's decedents have always acted as Wardens of the island.  This is why Alfred accepted Harry in the first place.  It could be that the Council is ignorant of the Dresden ancestry, so instead of appointing Eb it's Warden, they appoint Kemmler, that is where things went wrong.  Or could Kemmler be related somehow to the Dresdens, thus descended from Merlin as well?  Or was that a lie to get the job?
But I digress, Eb also says in his journal that he trusted Harry with the job of Warden, but then he trusted Maggie as well. Curious remark, if he hadn't made such a mess of her apprenticeship leading her to rebel, would Margaret have gotten the job?  Could that have added more fuel to the fire of the Council's fears of a dark lord being Warden of the island?  So they thought it better that it remain vulnerable than another Warden?

Finally, Harry's feeling that he'd been there before, yeah, I know how Luccio explained it, but put on your tin hats guys.. Harry felt like he'd been there before, because he had, he is Merlin.  That will become more apparent by the end of the series, another little bit that may point to this is the image Harry has of himself as he battles Sharkface in his head..

page 417 Cold Days
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I lifted my right arm to the frozen sky and shouted, wordless and furious, and a bolt of scarlet lightning flashed from the seething skies.  It smashed into my hand and then down into the earth.  Frozen dirt sprayed everywhere, and when it cleared, I stood holding an oaken quarterstaff carved with runes and sigils, as tall as my temple and as big around as my joined thumb and forefinger.

Harry, starchild, Merlin reincarnated..

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Merlin, Building the Island, and the Family Dresden
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2022, 04:17:36 AM »
I certainly see how you got there.

The idea of Harry = Merlin is always a good one. Of course, Jim is denying that theory and it would be fair to believe him (that said, he is a fan of it as it apparently is one of his favourites).

But if we put aside that Jim has denied it where does that leave us?

With a very compelling idea that has more than a few holes.

It's generally best to look at the flaws when testing a theory so I will do that first.

1) Mab doesn't seem to recognise Harry as Merlin.
Whatever the relationship between Harry and Merlin, Mab knew Merlin personally (and seems to have been in love with him). Surely she would recognise a younger version of her old flame? If she does in fact know Harry is Merlin, then why all the pretence? What reasons are there to keep his identity from him?

2) Vadderung taught original Merlin.
Harry hasn't had any real lessons from Vadderung. It could be in Harry's future but one gets the opinion Harry won't have much time for being a student...and he already has class booked with River Shoulders.

3) Merlin seems to be Harry's ancestor.
This would surely be a paradox?

4) The Wizard's star is quite common.
It represents the five elements (Air, Water, Fire, Earth, Spirit) bound by a circle of will. It's a common belief about magic that many other wizards share.

5) Merlin is considered not to be among the living.
Yes, we know there are degrees of life and death. I am a big advocate for that. That being said, Corb explicitly says "If he [Merlin] were among the living" which implies Merlin is not...and Harry is about 10ft from him. Obviously this could all be a bit of "Darth Vader killed your father" type trickery but it's worth considering.

6) Merlin was considered to have tried to unbind Renfields, and he failed.
Harry hasn't even shown a need to do this yet.

7) Merlin had magic, knowledge and power far beyond any mortal (and many supernaturals) we have seen.
Harry is still very much a medium fish in a lake, he isn't even in the ocean yet.

8 ) Harry feeling familiarity with being on Demonreach is explained as foresight (i.e. essentially a human mind processing non-linear time).
If Harry is eventually Merlin, how can he remember going to Demonreach when it was his first time? If anything, Merlin would be the one remembering Harry's life.       


These are some of the main arguments against the idea of Merlin=Harry that I can think of.

That being said. There are plenty of interesting connections between the two, and I also do like the idea of Harry becoming Merlin. But in order for it to work, the above points must be explained.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               
« Last Edit: January 16, 2022, 01:37:54 AM by Yuillegan »
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Merlin, Building the Island, and the Family Dresden
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2022, 06:14:41 AM »
Merlin was a shapeshifter in some iterations. Harry has taken the first step in that direction. Merlin was bound to a crystal tower in some iterations or was sealed in a tree.


Offline Mira

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Re: Merlin, Building the Island, and the Family Dresden
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2022, 12:47:55 PM »
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1) Mab doesn't seem to recognise Harry as Merlin.
Whatever the relationship between Harry and Merlin, Mab knew Merlin personally (and seems to have been in love with him). Surely she would recognise a younger version of her old flame? If she does in fact know Harry is Merlin, then why all the pretence? What reasons are there to keep his identity from him?

2) Vadderung taught original Merlin.
Harry hasn't had any real lessons from Vadderung. It could be in Harry's future but one gets the opinion Harry won't have much time for being a student...and he already has class booked with River Shoulders.

Both may have their reasons for not telling Harry.  There is a lot that apparently several characters know about Harry, but are not telling him, like what is expected of him as a star child.  Why his mother decided to conceive a star child, and that he was meant to be a weapon..  I don't disagree with what you are saying, but neither Mab or Vadderung supposedly not recognizing him or saying anything to him about it doesn't mean that it cannot be true based on the important information that they are keeping from him about himself, now.
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3) Merlin seems to be Harry's ancestor.
This would surely be a paradox?

Not if he is reincarnated, or Merlin born again, he might not look like Merlin in body, but the spirit and personality are there.
Quote
4) The Wizard's star is quite common.
It represents the five elements (Air, Water, Fire, Earth, Spirit) bound by a circle of will. It's a common belief about magic that many other wizards share.
I agree and said that in my original post, however what is noteworthy is only Harry, Thomas, their mother, Margaret, and Eb are described as wearing one.  In Harry's case it is given further importance by the gps crystal from his mother to the Ways of the Nevernever.  It was her necklace to begin with, interesting that she didn't leave it for Thomas, he was given a different one.  The gps crystal was withheld from Harry until he actually became Winter Knight in Changes if I remember the sequence correctly.  This is also an interesting little tidbit, why was it withheld in the first place? And could it have been a family heirloom from the original Merlin? Just what was the bargain Margaret made with Mab and or Lea for her son's protection?  So while a common symbol, we read about the robes the wizards wear, the colors and badges on the stoles they wear with those robes, but a pentacle necklace isn't among them except for the above mentioned.
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5) Merlin is considered not to be among the living.
Yes, we know there are degrees of life and death. I am a big advocate for that. That being said, Corb explicitly says "If he [Merlin] were among the living" which implies Merlin is not...and Harry is about 10ft from him. Obviously this could all be a bit of "Darth Vader killed your father" type trickery but it's worth considering.
True, but doesn't mean that Harry cannot be Merlin, reincarnated.. He is Harry, but he is also Merlin in all but body. 
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7) Merlin had magic, knowledge and power far beyond any mortal (and many supernaturals) we have seen.
Harry is still very much a medium fish in a lake, he isn't even in the ocean yet.
True, yet he has managed with his uncommon will to pull off things that members of the Senior Council haven't been able.  Also one might ask, is it from lack of talent, or lack of training and knowledge that holds Harry back in some areas?  The line in Battleground for example where Harry mentions that there were areas in the library at headquarters forbidden to him..
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8) Harry feeling familiarity with being on Demonreach is explained as foresight (i.e. essentially a human mind processing non-linear time).
If Harry is eventually Merlin, how can he remember going to Demonreach when it was his first time? If anything, Merlin would be the one remembering Harry's life.       

Yes, and I mentioned that Luccio had told him this, but at the same time this is the only place where this foresight has come into play.  Harry doesn't know who or what he is, not really, as in starchild.  At that point in time he didn't know he was a starchild, still doesn't know what it means.  Just odd I think that the one place Harry would have this experience is the one place that has become so significant in his life.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 03:54:03 AM by Mira »

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Merlin, Building the Island, and the Family Dresden
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2022, 02:51:12 PM »
Arguably Harry’s foresight was responsible for identifying Lasciel in Skin Game and Nemesis in Battle Ground, it did this through the medium of his subconscious which is considerably smarter than his conscious.


Offline Mira

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Re: Merlin, Building the Island, and the Family Dresden
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2022, 04:20:17 PM »
Arguably Harry’s foresight was responsible for identifying Lasciel in Skin Game and Nemesis in Battle Ground, it did this through the medium of his subconscious which is considerably smarter than his conscious.

And just who is this subconscious?  Yeah, I know, supposedly Harry but still in Fool Moon I think it was, when he was described, he was like Harry, still at the same time nothing like him at all.  One could say he was Harry's dark side, indeed he at least is more decisive.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Merlin, Building the Island, and the Family Dresden
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2022, 06:15:58 PM »
I don't believe in reincarnation, but if it were true then the feeling Harry experienced might be a case of Harry/Merlin feeling the intellectus of Merlin's bond with the island rather than a case of precognition.

Offline Mira

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Re: Merlin, Building the Island, and the Family Dresden
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2022, 07:10:49 PM »
I don't believe in reincarnation, but if it were true then the feeling Harry experienced might be a case of Harry/Merlin feeling the intellectus of Merlin's bond with the island rather than a case of precognition.

That works for me, for my part there is just too many connections for it all to be a string of coincidences.  Oh and another maybe not so important point, the pentacle necklaces.  I get the
symbol of magic etc., but as I said only four characters that we know of have been mentioned as wearing one.  All four are closely related, something else says it might be a family thing.  Thomas wears one, he isn't a wizard, though he has shown a bit of talent, i.e. he did do a tracking spell that apparently Harry had taught him.  However having said that, he is neither a wizard nor does he hold magic in terms of reverence, in the way that Harry does.  It was mentioned in Blood Rites as one of the things that he and Harry wore in common pointing to a relationship.  Also interesting it wasn't until Peace Talks that Harry saw fit to mention that Eb also wears a pentacle. Which brings us back to the formation of the island, Merlin's use of the pentacle form is a huge deal in it's magical creation.. Common?  Maybe, but how often have you heard any spell cast by anyone where it was said to be in a pentacle form outside of when Merlin created the island?  At least I cannot remember any.. 


Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Merlin, Building the Island, and the Family Dresden
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2022, 05:28:08 AM »
Harry doesn't have to be Merlin in order for Harry to be Merlin though. GK has been referred to as the last version of Harry. Rashid has the same veins of character as Merlin and a few others. I'd think this is indicative of Harry being the most recent version of a Merlin archetype (though much broader and deeper than just that)

Offline Mira

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Re: Merlin, Building the Island, and the Family Dresden
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2022, 11:53:41 AM »
Harry doesn't have to be Merlin in order for Harry to be Merlin though. GK has been referred to as the last version of Harry. Rashid has the same veins of character as Merlin and a few others. I'd think this is indicative of Harry being the most recent version of a Merlin archetype (though much broader and deeper than just that)

That still doesn't exclude a family connection.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Merlin, Building the Island, and the Family Dresden
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2022, 02:38:42 PM »
That still doesn't exclude a family connection.
or include one, so what's your point in that? Literally not a point I touched in either way

Offline Mira

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Re: Merlin, Building the Island, and the Family Dresden
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2022, 03:16:54 PM »
or include one, so what's your point in that? Literally not a point I touched in either way

My point is there are multiple possible connections between the original Merlin and Harry's family.. There are Easter Eggs sprinkled all through the series as I pointed out.  Rashid might be an "archetype" as you put it of the original Merlin, but I don't think there are many, if any, clues that suggest a possible family connection to Merlin.  So yes, saying Harry is an archetype doesn't prove anything, nor does it disprove it..

Offline seanham

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Re: Merlin, Building the Island, and the Family Dresden
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2022, 04:36:49 PM »
I do not think that Harry is a reincarnation of Merlin, but I wouldn't be surprised if he had some family relation to him. However, just because Thomas and Eb all wear the same pendant necklaces doesn't mean much, in my opinion. I like the comment that Yuillegan made about their being different degrees of life and death. Could some small bit of Merlin's soul be in Harry causing his ID?

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: Merlin, Building the Island, and the Family Dresden
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2022, 05:02:17 PM »
My point is there are multiple possible connections between the original Merlin and Harry's family.. There are Easter Eggs sprinkled all through the series as I pointed out.  Rashid might be an "archetype" as you put it of the original Merlin, but I don't think there are many, if any, clues that suggest a possible family connection to Merlin.  So yes, saying Harry is an archetype doesn't prove anything, nor does it disprove it..
and none of those "Easter eggs" prove or disprove a family connection between Harry and Merlin? The only one I see you pointed out is the pentacle, which has been gone over before.. but to rehash, that's a connection through his magical learning, not something he got from his bloodline being connected to Merlin. Master to apprentice is the only proven line there so far.
My line of reasoning runs parallel to your theory, it doesn't in itself disturb it either way. Do I have to disprove something for Harry to be an archetype? No.
And it proves itself, in and of itself, a great deal. People can and HAVE made theories on Harry's future based on the archetype he's living and they have indeed started to come to pass. Iirc someone had a big one in PT/BG that I can't recall the specifics of.
Harry has indeed not studied reversing reinfelds, he could do this in the future perhaps. But Harry also refused the position of court mage to Make one even though he still helped him get his empire started, so perhaps events do not unfold linearly every time.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Merlin, Building the Island, and the Family Dresden
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2022, 05:58:38 PM »
If Harry is going to start investigating Renfields now is the right time of the arc to do so since evidently we are going to visit the Blacks and their progenitor. Who might get to be a Renfield that Harry might try and save?

The problem with the quoted sections that Mira posted is that the source is unreliable.  Both Bob and Demonreach.  Butcher made this abundantly clear in Peace Talks. Demonreach is keeping secrets. The overarching theme is that there is something about the prison and the English prisoner that Harry shouldn't know.  Why there are multiple story possibilities in that, the one obvious one is that it would be dangerous for Harry to know who it is. That suggests the possibility of paradox, that knowing who it is would change something not meant to be changed.  And there are multiple layers of this kind of thing ongoing.

Why did Jim break Little Chicago? I'll offer a suggestion.  Jim needed a source for advanced magic that he couldn't otherwise get. Bonea may not be the bright sprite she appears to be.