Peace Talks interesting things and questions

[Yuillegan]

1. Who cut out Ethniu's eye?

On that perfect bronze face, the mutilation of her eye stood out like a gallows in a public park. The orbital ridges around the socket were covered in white, granite-like scars, as if the biggest, ugliest cat you’d ever seen had scratched it out. It wasn’t sunken, though the lid was closed. That mangled eye bulged ever so slightly, as if it had been meant for a being considerably larger than she was.

Obviously would have to be something big, both literally and figuratively. It's our assumption that the Black Council are the ones who gave her the Eye, as it fits their M.O.

That being said, it could have been another group. Say, Tessa and Imariel and her more chaotic Denarians? They all love chaos and destruction. But also, what about the Outsiders themselves?

I could definitely see He Who Walks Behind having a role. He's been established as more than a demon, more than a hitman; he's a manipulator and a peer of Uriel. So he could definitely tear out the eye of a Goddess. He also could be large enough to leave such big scars. We have to remember that anything that could scar Titanic Bronze on a Titan is a serious being.

Another candidate is Lucifer himself. But why he would get that involved is harder to work out.


2. Is Ebenezar a Denarian?

Hovering maybe twenty feet up, with his feet planted firmly on a stone the size of a Buick, was the Blackstaff, Ebenezar McCoy. One hand was spread out to one side for balance, fingers crooked in a mystic sign, sort of a kinetic shorthand for whatever spell was keeping that boulder in the air.
 The other gripped his staff, carved with runes like mine, and they glowed with sullen red-orange energy. His face had twisted into a rictus of cold, hard fury. Flickers of static electricity played along the surface of the stone.

Now, it could just be about the amount of power in the staff that Ebenezar was putting into it. But. I seem to remember Harry's own runes on his staff used to glow the same color when using magic while he possessed a Coin. Considering how angry and barely controlled Ebenezar is...I could see a Denarian egging him along. One of the big things with Denarians is the reveal, the sucker punch. It would be quite the surprise to learn he is a Denarian.

The question is why? He already is a wizard, so he has power. He already wields the Blackstaff, so he already has a dark deal. Why get another? And when would he have done it? Why isn't he aiding the other Denarians?

Hard to say on any accounts. Perhaps, like Mab, he needs all the power he can get to do what he feels he has to. Cowl felt much the same. Simon even expressed sentiments of frustration on the limitations of being a wizard in the Paranet Papers. When he would have done it is impossible to tell, but I would guess it would have been before the Blackstaff was his (in this hypothetical scenario). And perhaps we just don't see him aid the other Denarians because it's all in the background. Or perhaps he is a rebel (along with his Fallen) and doesn't care to help the others. Or perhaps...he is leading the other Nemesis-infected beings, and he and his Fallen are in the same boat.

[K.L.O.E.]

1. Who cut out Ethniu's eye?
Obviously would have to be something big, both literally and figuratively. It's our assumption that the Black Council are the ones who gave her the Eye, as it fits their M.O.

That being said, it could have been another group. Say, Tessa and Imariel and her more chaotic Denarians? They all love chaos and destruction. But also, what about the Outsiders themselves?

I could definitely see He Who Walks Behind having a role. He's been established as more than a demon, more than a hitman; he's a manipulator and a peer of Uriel. So he could definitely tear out the eye of a Goddess. He also could be large enough to leave such big scars. We have to remember that anything that could scar Titanic Bronze on a Titan is a serious being.

Another candidate is Lucifer himself. But why he would get that involved is harder to work out.

I'd assumed it was either another Titan/God or a Dragon. We don't know who or what intervened when Balor made the eye in the first place (I'm assuming something major got involved as well Titans). It's implied that Ferrovax fully manifested could fight Ethniu on relatively equal footing it would just shatter reality and Ferro may die in the process. So maybe another Dragon took the eye from Balor and hid it then Ethniu went and got it? Or did the eye end up with the Hundred Handed Ones and she got the Bronze and the eye at the same time?

2. Is Ebenezar a Denarian?Now, it could just be about the amount of power in the staff that Ebenezar was putting into it. But. I seem to remember Harry's own runes on his staff used to glow the same color when using magic while he possessed a Coin. Considering how angry and barely controlled Ebenezar is...I could see a Denarian egging him along. One of the big things with Denarians is the reveal, the sucker punch. It would be quite the surprise to learn he is a Denarian.

The question is why? He already is a wizard, so he has power. He already wields the Blackstaff, so he already has a dark deal. Why get another? And when would he have done it? Why isn't he aiding the other Denarians?

Hard to say on any accounts. Perhaps, like Mab, he needs all the power he can get to do what he feels he has to. Cowl felt much the same. Simon even expressed sentiments of frustration on the limitations of being a wizard in the Paranet Papers. When he would have done it is impossible to tell, but I would guess it would have been before the Blackstaff was his (in this hypothetical scenario). And perhaps we just don't see him aid the other Denarians because it's all in the background. Or perhaps he is a rebel (along with his Fallen) and doesn't care to help the others. Or perhaps...he is leading the other Nemesis-infected beings, and he and his Fallen are in the same boat.

This theory is perfect. Have we ever seen Ebenezer on Demonreach? If he's been avoiding it that adds further credence to the theory.

[Mira]

his theory is perfect. Have we ever seen Ebenezer on Demonreach? If he's been avoiding it that adds further credence to the theory.

Except the Denarians had no problem taking Ivy to the island when they kidnapped her.  I also believe that Eb was on the island in Turn Coat, but I need to go back and check.  Also Lasciel's shadow was trying to persuade Harry to take up the coin, Harry never actually took it up and possessed it. 

[Yuillegan]

I'd assumed it was either another Titan/God or a Dragon. We don't know who or what intervened when Balor made the eye in the first place (I'm assuming something major got involved as well Titans). It's implied that Ferrovax fully manifested could fight Ethniu on relatively equal footing it would just shatter reality and Ferro may die in the process. So maybe another Dragon took the eye from Balor and hid it then Ethniu went and got it? Or did the eye end up with the Hundred Handed Ones and she got the Bronze and the eye at the same time?

This theory is perfect. Have we ever seen Ebenezer on Demonreach? If he's been avoiding it that adds further credence to the theory.

I don't think it was implied to be any being, at least from the text that I read. But I could have missed something. The story goes that Balor's grandson (Ethniu's son) Lugh used a sling to hurl a stone into his grandfather's eye, defeating him and ending the war (for a time). An obvious parallel is with David and Goliath, and historians have speculated that there may have been some crossover between the Jewish people and the Irish of that time. Whose story it was first is a little harder to say.

I don't know it's implied he could have fought Ethniu on an equal footing either. He had trouble resisting her will when she first shows up in Peace Talks. He implies that should he manifest he might do more harm to the city, but not that he could necessarily be on an equal footing. I would agree that it would certainly have been more of an issue for Ethniu, but even if he were on par with her (a bold claim), he would lose by default as both Chicago would be razed AND local reality would collapse, which is why he went to the Never never to stop it doing just that.

The other possibility is that Ethniu ripped her own eye out, and as Harry implies, gained the Eye of Balor from her son. It might never be a question that gets answered. But I think it is interesting regardless.

Furthermore, how did she get covered in Titanic Bronze?
This is why I think who gave her the Eye is important. Only the Hundred-Handed Ones knew it's secret, so even for a Titan it isn't easy to get. But some powerful players set her up nicely for a war. I'd say there a big movers and shakers behind the scenes, and Cowl is merely an agent of them. Perhaps more powerful than Ethniu, perhaps by a lot. Remember, everyone supernatural seemed very shocked she was covered in Titanic Bronze as well. She definitely wasn't back in the good old days where she had sacrifices made to her.

Yes, as Mira points out we did see Eb on Demonreach unfortunately. But I am curious to why you asked that question...what's the significance of him being on the Island? Lots of Denarians have been on the Island (notably before Harry properly awakened it) and the implication is that Nemesis isn't too worried once it gets on the Island. Nemesis seems to think once it was on the Island it would only be a matter of time before it got in and started breaking things out...or causing enough chaos as a byproduct that it's ultimate mission becomes inevitable.

[Mira]

Yes, as Mira points out we did see Eb on Demonreach unfortunately. But I am curious to why you asked that question...what's the significance of him being on the Island? Lots of Denarians have been on the Island (notably before Harry properly awakened it) and the implication is that Nemesis isn't too worried once it gets on the Island. Nemesis seems to think once it was on the Island it would only be a matter of time before it got in and started breaking things out...or causing enough chaos as a byproduct that it's ultimate mission becomes inevitable.

Perhaps, but Nemesis has also found out that it isn't all that easy as well.  In Cold Days they tried both a direct approach along with an infected Winter Lady and a corrupted Summer Lady, though Maeve, got on the Island, and they failed.  I guess you could say the Island got lucky that time, but now the Warden understands how it's defenses work, and they are fully engaged.  That is why they tried a more subtle approach with Justine, and it is possible if Harry had been totally fooled and she did succeed in entering the area where Thomas is being held it would have ended as you suggest. But Harry wasn't fooled, it was close, but he wasn't fooled perhaps the reason being he is starborn and saw through it. None of this answers the question as to why the Senior Council is so resistant to the Island having a Warden? As pointed out, it seems rather critical that is does.  Alfred is good, but to me he doesn't appear to have free choice, he craves guidance.

[Yuillegan]

Perhaps, but Nemesis has also found out that it isn't all that easy as well.  In Cold Days they tried both a direct approach along with an infected Winter Lady and a corrupted Summer Lady, though Maeve, got on the Island, and they failed.  I guess you could say the Island got lucky that time, but now the Warden understands how it's defenses work, and they are fully engaged.  That is why they tried a more subtle approach with Justine, and it is possible if Harry had been totally fooled and she did succeed in entering the area where Thomas is being held it would have ended as you suggest. But Harry wasn't fooled, it was close, but he wasn't fooled perhaps the reason being he is starborn and saw through it. None of this answers the question as to why the Senior Council is so resistant to the Island having a Warden? As pointed out, it seems rather critical that is does.  Alfred is good, but to me he doesn't appear to have free choice, he craves guidance.

In the other thread Mira, I answer why the Council (specifically Senior Council don't have a Warden on Demonreach). Basically, they believe anyone who takes it is the Voldemort of Dresdenverse. Kemmler did, and they spent a lot of time keeping him off the Island after that. Only someone really crazy or foolish would take that mantle, that job...oh wait.

Nemesis clearly doesn't work like normal beings. It isn't a planner. It's like Jack Sparrow or the Joker. You're never quite sure what is planned and what is just chaos for chaos' sake.

And yes, Alfred isn't mortal so now free will. He needs a mortal to work with him. But then again...he can just be the prison too. He's like a big AI.

[Mira]

In the other thread Mira, I answer why the Council (specifically Senior Council don't have a Warden on Demonreach). Basically, they believe anyone who takes it is the Voldemort of Dresdenverse. Kemmler did, and they spent a lot of time keeping him off the Island after that. Only someone really crazy or foolish would take that mantle, that job...oh wait.

That is the ignorance, of the White Council, they made a poor choice in Kemmler, most likely his tendencies were already there before he was chosen for the job.  Many still cannot believe that Justin went warlock because he was once a Warden of the White Council.  Alfred still needs a supervisor, proof of that is all would have been lost in Battleground if he didn't have one. 

[Yuillegan]

That is the ignorance, of the White Council, they made a poor choice in Kemmler, most likely his tendencies were already there before he was chosen for the job.  Many still cannot believe that Justin went warlock because he was once a Warden of the White Council.  Alfred still needs a supervisor, proof of that is all would have been lost in Battleground if he didn't have one.

I don't think they did choose Kemmler. As far as I know, he wasn't even on the White Council. I think he just did what Harry did (i.e. he just went and claimed it) and once they realised they did their level best to stop him getting back on the Island (and seemingly succeeded).

I don't think the White Council had any say in Kemmler being Warden, partially because they didn't even know he was going to take the role.

Justin, while a fallen wizard, was no Kemmler (unless some of those Kemmler/Justin theories turn out to be true). Kemmler took on the entire White Council, and quite likely several other supernatural nations, and very nearly won. And may not even be permanently dead (if such a thing is possible in the Dresden Files). Hell, he might already be back for all we know.

The curious thing is about Battle Ground, is that if Ethniu had rocked up to another city (I know, seems impossible in the Dresden Files), how would they have stopped her? My guess is there are other ways, Demonreach simply provided the best option. Obviously, it also worked for the book. But Vadderung and Mab are pretty crafty, and I get the impression that the White Council at some point have taken on gods, not to mention the Svartalves (who were well respected by the Aesir in the myths).

Alfred needs a supervisor in order to capture beings. But he doesn't need one to keep things off the Island entirely. The Maeve/Lily play worked partially because they airdropped into the Circle, and partially because they were Faeries and have a connection to Earth spirits. Clearly He Who Walks Before couldn't just do that, otherwise he wouldn't have wasted his energies on the shore. Hell, despite the Naaglooshii being on the Island he was no real threat to Demonreach at all and was allowed to be on the Island despite being clearly told he couldn't actually enter the prison.

[Mira]

Alfred needs a supervisor in order to capture beings. But he doesn't need one to keep things off the Island entirely. The Maeve/Lily play worked partially because they airdropped into the Circle, and partially because they were Faeries and have a connection to Earth spirits. Clearly He Who Walks Before couldn't just do that, otherwise he wouldn't have wasted his energies on the shore. Hell, despite the Naaglooshii being on the Island he was no real threat to Demonreach at all and was allowed to be on the Island despite being clearly told he couldn't actually enter the prison.

I don't think that is totally true.  In the past people did manage for a while at least to settle there, there are ruins.  Now with the means of "bad vibs" for lack of a better word, after a while Alfred got rid of them, however they still were there and could have done mischief.  The Denarians got on to the Island with no trouble and Namshiel certianly could have done lots of damage if he felt it was worth his while to do it.  I wouldn't be shocked if he was perfectly aware that Alfred and the prison were there, it just didn't serve his purpose to mess with it at that time.  Finally and most importantly at the beginning of Skin Game, Harry mentions that one of the things he had been learning that past year, is how to deploy the Island defenses, which if I remember correctly [I've only had one or two swallows of coffee] hadn't been deployed as they should have been for some time.  That could have been the main reason why Maeve and Company had been able to drop in by air in the first place, alone, Alfred wasn't able to fully deploy the Island defenses.

Now that I've had my coffee and had time to wake up and look it up.  Page 6 Skin Game, bolding mine;

I'd spent the last year acquainting myself with the island's secrets, with the defenses that I hadn't even known existed---defenses that could be activated only by the Warden.  If the Walker tried that play again, I could shut him down single-handed.  Even Mab, as powerful as she was, would be well-advised to be cautious if she decided to start trouble on Demonreach's soil.

There you have it, without a Warden, the Island was vulnerable, or I should say some had some vulnerabilities..  Apparently Maeve and Company knew that, that is why they chose the time and the manner of their attack in Cold Days.  While yes, in Cold Days Harry was the Warden, but because of his recovery time etc from injury, he hadn't been on the Island long enough to fully understand what the job entailed, or how to do his new job.  Heck, until he came back to the Island in Cold Days with Bob, he didn't even know it was a maximum security prison.  Maeve, would also have known that, that is why they attacked when they did.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Mab calculated that if she held the Peace Talks on the summer solstice (her weakest day) it would draw out the Fomor and whoever was behind them. She may have suspected Ethnui as a major unaccounted for power if so Chicago was a logical place just in case someone like Ethnui turned up, because of Demonreach and Harry. The Fomor were very confident suggesting they thought they could easily win, and if it was Ethnui she would fall for the trap due to her emotional nature and overconfidence. Ethnui couldn’t help attacking at Mab’s big event.

Mab had arms caches in place for years in Chicago so she had be expecting trouble if she held an event there.

Basically she rigged the game, just like she usually does.

Ethnui may have been a worst case scenario, for Harry it was business as normal.

[TrueMonk]

I think this is the most likely. Given that Lea says betrayal is in the nature of the Foot and the world just have to be shown (in that short story with Molly) Man must have expected treachery from the fomor. Even if she was not sure of they had an immortal backing them doing it in Chicago ensured Harry, Marcone and Lara would be ready to fight at their best. And I think they are all three opponents that the fomor would underestimate because they are the most mortal.

Perhaps Mab could also see Marcone rising in power and would like to see what he pulled out of his hat when he was really pushed.

I can definitely see nemesis pulling string to ensure that Ethniu got the titanic bronze and/or the eye. I think she needed both to be a threat to all of the accorded nations working together.

[K.L.O.E.]

I don't think it was implied to be any being, at least from the text that I read. But I could have missed something. The story goes that Balor's grandson (Ethniu's son) Lugh used a sling to hurl a stone into his grandfather's eye, defeating him and ending the war (for a time). An obvious parallel is with David and Goliath, and historians have speculated that there may have been some crossover between the Jewish people and the Irish of that time. Whose story it was first is a little harder to say.

I don't know it's implied he could have fought Ethniu on an equal footing either. He had trouble resisting her will when she first shows up in Peace Talks. He implies that should he manifest he might do more harm to the city, but not that he could necessarily be on an equal footing. I would agree that it would certainly have been more of an issue for Ethniu, but even if he were on par with her (a bold claim), he would lose by default as both Chicago would be razed AND local reality would collapse, which is why he went to the Never never to stop it doing just that.

The other possibility is that Ethniu ripped her own eye out, and as Harry implies, gained the Eye of Balor from her son. It might never be a question that gets answered. But I think it is interesting regardless.

Furthermore, how did she get covered in Titanic Bronze?
This is why I think who gave her the Eye is important. Only the Hundred-Handed Ones knew it's secret, so even for a Titan it isn't easy to get. But some powerful players set her up nicely for a war. I'd say there a big movers and shakers behind the scenes, and Cowl is merely an agent of them. Perhaps more powerful than Ethniu, perhaps by a lot. Remember, everyone supernatural seemed very shocked she was covered in Titanic Bronze as well. She definitely wasn't back in the good old days where she had sacrifices made to her.

Yes, as Mira points out we did see Eb on Demonreach unfortunately. But I am curious to why you asked that question...what's the significance of him being on the Island? Lots of Denarians have been on the Island (notably before Harry properly awakened it) and the implication is that Nemesis isn't too worried once it gets on the Island. Nemesis seems to think once it was on the Island it would only be a matter of time before it got in and started breaking things out...or causing enough chaos as a byproduct that it's ultimate mission becomes inevitable.

Isn't her son a sun god? That qualifies as a being in my book.

My question about Eb more relates to would Demonreach be able to ID him as a Denarian after the fact? Does intellectus provide that sort of metaphysical memory? Alfred may also be able to ID the blackstaff as well if they can.

I'm not sure how much Nemesis knows about the island unless they possessed a Warden at some point in time. They may know what's stored there and have an idea of some of the defenses but really where else would they learn the details?

Really though I agree. The crux of the matter is where did the Bronze come from?

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Nemesis knows the dark ley lines running from the island, and seeks to utilise that power. That much is apparent from Cold Days.

Mab would be aware also of the Knights connections with Chicago, again a further ally in an attack on that City, and that the Erl King’s domain leads into the Chicago FBI Building.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Question #1: I doubt that it is important who did it.  Maybe we will find out when if Harry summons Ethniu to do something horrible to another monster that is a much larger threat, so that it makes the possibility of losing control of Ethniu worth the risk.

Question #2:  I seriously doubt that Ebenezer is a denarian.  It's a good hypothesis because it fits the facts, but as Yuillegan points out, it doesn't make a great deal of sense for Ebenezer to have made such a deal.  So, I have to ask myself if there another hypothesis that fits the facts, and I think there is. 

Why is hellfire red?  (I feel like Sir Bedevere in Monty Python and the Holly Grail.)  It's not because it uses fire magic or that it comes from some kind of hellish volcano filled with red lava.  It's symbolic of the red hot anger of the Fallen ones.  Yuelligan tells us that Ebenezer is barely in control of his actions.  In fact, Eb will lose control and would have killed Harry if Harry had actually been on the dock.  Ebenezer is about to use black magic because he's incredibly angry and believes that he is right and is doing the right thing.

Therefore, my hypothesis is all black magic; or at least all black magic motivated by anger, is red or of a reddish color.  Whereas, Harry's normal fire magic; or any regular fire magic used by any other wizard who uses it, is red because the fire they call forth is using oxygen for it's fuel.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

If there is a Denarian on the White Council it’s Ancient Mai, she is old even for a Wizard and doesn’t have the excuse of being in the NeverNever all the time.

Besides Harry’s staff gave off a whiff of sulphur when he used Hellfire, no indication of that with a Eb.