There is no such thing as "Black" Magic in the Dresdenverse

[Mira]

Not sure how Harry is proof of this. I dont recall him doing anything particularly bad. The worst thing he has done so far is rescue Thomas from the Svartalves without actual evidence that Thomas was innocent. But he was forced to do that by Mab.

Supposedly he did use it to kill Justin, plus Justin's attempts to enthrall him both left a "stain" of Black Magic on him as pointed out by the Loa.  This is why at the same time he was made a wizard he was also called a warlock and placed under the Doom in Eb's care.

In any case, if the corruption is not "due to the magic itself" than there is no corruption. At that point it is just like anything else, subject to the self-control of the user, and there is no reason for these things to be illegal in this way. Its also unclear to me how you would distinguish between the "rush" a user might feel from killing with magic and the rush they might get if they kill without magic.

Think of magic as a gun, a gun alone isn't evil, a gun used properly, isn't evil nor does it corrupt it's user... A gun misused, does the opposite, it is evil, corrupts the user and makes him evil.

[Shift8]

Supposedly he did use it to kill Justin, plus Justin's attempts to enthrall him both left a "stain" of Black Magic on him as pointed out by the Loa.  This is why at the same time he was made a wizard he was also called a warlock and placed under the Doom in Eb's care.
Think of magic as a gun, a gun alone isn't evil, a gun used properly, isn't evil nor does it corrupt it's user... A gun misused, does the opposite, it is evil, corrupts the user and makes him evil.

I thought he was saying Harrys actions after Justins killing were evidence of him being tainted. He has certainly violated the laws, I agree.

I agree a gun alone is not evil. But a gun used wrongly doesnt corrupt the user. The user corrupts themselves.

[morriswalters]

We might have to agree to disagree on this particular point. It could be true if Jim says so, in the sense that he means for it to be that way in the story, but even if he meant it that way it still makes the story worse because at that point it wont make any sense...even if Jim thinks otherwise. However I doubt any of that was his intention.

I am fine with it being possible that violations of the laws have other harms associated with them. I just dont think their is a invariable magical corruption at play.

It's your book when you read it, so interpret it the way you see fit. But until Jim tells me in the text that Black Magic doesn't exist, then for me it exists.  Even if I don't understand his rules.

[Mira]

agree a gun alone is not evil. But a gun used wrongly doesnt corrupt the user. The user corrupts themselves.

No, there is blow back, and I agree with morriswalters as well on this, in the Dresdenverse, Black Magic exists. Because it is easy and give the user a false sense of power and importance it the first thing an unguided kid with talent reaches for without realizing what using it is doing to him or her.

[CrusherJen]

Some food for thought, from the Word of Jim website:

The Laws of Magic don’t necessarily match up to the actual universal guidelines to how the universal power known as “magic” behaves.

The consequences for breaking the Laws of Magic don’t all come from people wearing grey cloaks.

And none of it necessarily has anything to do with what is Right or Wrong.

Which exist.  It’s finding where they start or stop existing that’s the hard part.

Jim

(Link: https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-magic-in-the-dresden-files-part-2/ )

What I get from this is: black magic exists, but the White Council's (and by extension, Harry's) understanding of it is incomplete and/or somewhat inaccurate. We can only trust what Harry says to a point... and I suspect he (and us readers) will discover more about the truth of black magic in a future book, likely Mirror Mirror, since we're going to see an Evil Harry in that novel.

[narphoenix]

I think OP is wrong, but for basically the reasoning behind OP’s argument.

The argument that I’m understanding from OP is that you can’t distinguish black magic corruption from other forms of corruption epistemologically, and therefore black magic corruption isn’t a thing.

I agree with OP it’s difficult to distinguish black magic corruption from other forms of corruption epistemologically. But my conclusion is that black corrupts pretty much like every other course of action does.

When you choose to do something, you have definitionally made yourself someone who chose to do that thing. If you kill someone, you are empirically a killer. If you lie, you are empirically a liar. Etc. And behaviors are reinforced by identity in turn. Black magic corruption is more of the same: it’s just that there’s also a spiritual/mental intimacy with it that makes it more difficult to separate from the act.

Mind, this extends to GOOD acts, too. Someone who was an utter rat bastard who decides to be selflessly kind one becomes somebody who can be selflessly kind, by definition. And this can reinforce itself as well.

[Yuillegan]

So, I think I understand how you got here and I do think you're on to something in that there will be some reveals about black magic and some of it is to do with lies the White Council tells and Harry has believed.

I don't agree that it doesn't turn people evil at all though either, the truth is more nuanced. I also don't buy that a person would have to be evil to commit an act that would send them evil i.e. the magic is what you believe problem.

A simple example of that is that Harry could kill someone in self-defence and not necessarily be evil before that moment, yet in that moment he believed that person should die to stop himself or another from coming to harm. On the other hand, if Harry kept killing people with magic and eventually started executing people without proper consideration and just did it to solve a potential problem more easily then yes it might turn him evil (the White Council's response to Warlocks comes to mind, although they do attempt to use non-magical means to kill where they can).

Jim has often spoken about how to him (at least in terms of the Dresden Files), it's much more the results that matter than the intentions behind them. So even if you had darker thoughts, if you weren't acting on them you weren't necessarily evil. And if you're doing evil deeds, even if you're trying to do good and have the best intentions....well there is that old chestnut about the quality of pavings on a southbound road.

So as Morris above points out, it's not so much about the magic as whatever your actions result in regardless of whether magic is involved. That being said, I suspect using magic is like standing next to a radioactive material, and it's just more direct in how it changes you. You can't use the fundamental powers of Creation and not have the process change you one way or another. We are only human after all.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Corrupting acts tend to corrupt, whether magical or mundane. I think the seven laws are merely to prevent magic and by its extension the White Council and its practitioners as being seen to be corrupt.

They don’t care about heinous acts committed by their members if no magic is involved. A wizard can be the worst paedophile attacking generation upon generation of apprentices, but using purely mundane methods of control, it’s only if they use magic does the White Council care. Doubtless that does happen, some people will use their positions of influence and power in whatever hierarchy they can gain prominence in, a church, a business, a society etc.

Ideally I would like to see Harry/Jim address this in Next Book, that an apprentice he has helped place in the past comes to him for help because the White Council will do nothing about his abusive master who has a past history of abuse.

[Yuillegan]

I think that is exactly the point. It doesn't matter whether magic is involved or not, as I suspect Sin (or something like it) exists within the world of the Dresden Files. By which I mean, evil. But the source of it is the question. Is it from the Outside? Is it from the Devil? Or is it generated by mortals? Very tricky to answer without more knowledge.

But I wouldn't say the Laws of Magic exist merely to preserve the White Council's good image. The only people who would care are other mortal practitioners. No, I think that the Laws truly were made to stop wizards turning into demigods and violating the free will of mortals. Whether they actually achieve that is still questionable, and as often shown and discussed, they don't really deal with right and wrong.

I suspect it isn't so much that they don't care about heinous acts as they are very careful about how they define it. Lucio's discussion with Dresden was very illuminating.

To use your example (and I just want to point out we are skating close to the line of Touchy Topics so let's just all be careful here), a wizard paedophile who wasn't violating any of the Laws or Council rules would not be subject to their punishments. Not only that, but defining such a character is more tricky than you might imagine. The age of legal marriage varies greatly across the world even today sadly, and while generally most cultures in most times consider prepubescent people children (and therefore consider any sexual relations with them paedophilia) unfortunately it isn't always the case. When you get then factor in other time periods as well where people got married earlier and lived shorter lives...it becomes even trickier. I bring this up because there would be wizards alive on the White Council who might come from a time and place who don't see the issue with marrying a 14 year old or whatever. And they wouldn't even necessarily be in the minority, as it seems the Council's average age is around a century or more.

So disciplining such individuals wouldn't only be difficult, but probably considered outside the scope of the White Council's remit. Unless of course they used magic. In which case I suspect there would be many wizards who would take great satisfaction from going after such monsters.

What is suspect is a really interesting question is whether such monsters, if they don't use magic to carry out and/or fascilitate their abuse, would their magic end up warping to black magic? My guess would eventually be yes, but the Laws don't cover that. I guess what I am saying is that while using black magic will warp and individual faster, a person not using black magic will still become warped by doing evil deeds, even if they don't end up becoming a gibbering warlock in appearance.

There is a qualitative difference in how black magic changes a mortal than committing evil through mundane means. As I said above, you can't use the forces of Creation without consequences.

It would be a very interesting area for the books to follow, I agree. I think Jim would do a good job of it and treat the subject matter respectfully. And the next book would be a reasonable place to do such a thing, although I suspect Harry might be a bit busy dealing with his own trauma and and fallout. But hey, it could be a subplot. Otherwise a short story might work. Then again, Jim might want to avoid the potential minefield. Which is understandable.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

No “black” magic, only “black” magicians,

[Mira]

To use your example (and I just want to point out we are skating close to the line of Touchy Topics so let's just all be careful here), a wizard paedophile who wasn't violating any of the Laws or Council rules would not be subject to their punishments. Not only that, but defining such a character is more tricky than you might imagine. The age of legal marriage varies greatly across the world even today sadly, and while generally most cultures in most times consider prepubescent people children (and therefore consider any sexual relations with them paedophilia) unfortunately it isn't always the case. When you get then factor in other time periods as well where people got married earlier and lived shorter lives...it becomes even trickier. I bring this up because there would be wizards alive on the White Council who might come from a time and place who don't see the issue with marrying a 14 year old or whatever. And they wouldn't even necessarily be in the minority, as it seems the Council's average age is around a century or more.

Tip toeing very carefully around a very touchy topic here, but I think that one of the Seven Laws the White Council is very serious about is enthrallment.  If you go back and read the earliest descriptions of it, what Justin did to Elaine and attempted to do to Harry had sexual elements to it.  At the time both Elaine and Harry were minors.  Now that image has changed over the books, or Harry's memory of what really happened has changed, but that mirrors somewhat what happens to the memories of those abused. In Harry's first memories, it isn't just enthrallment, but the corruption of two minors by Justin.

[Yuillegan]

No “black” magic, only “black” magicians,

Could be semantics potentially. To speak of one might be to speak of the other. Mortals can influence reality to such a massive degree with their choices after all, it could be as simple as whatever the majority of humans believe is evil makes it evil in a cosmic sense.

I am not saying that's the case by the way, but it's possible.

Tip toeing very carefully around a very touchy topic here, but I think that one of the Seven Laws the White Council is very serious about is enthrallment.  If you go back and read the earliest descriptions of it, what Justin did to Elaine and attempted to do to Harry had sexual elements to it.  At the time both Elaine and Harry were minors.  Now that image has changed over the books, or Harry's memory of what really happened has changed, but that mirrors somewhat what happens to the memories of those abused. In Harry's first memories, it isn't just enthrallment, but the corruption of two minors by Justin.

I thought you did very well there Mira, I appreciate the care you have shown here.

I agree wholeheartedly that the implication with Harry and Elaine is that some of their abuse from Justin could have had a sexual nature. Arguably, even the fact that Justin put them together as minors and did nothing to discourage their experimenting let alone potentially encouraging it (and.or manipulating things to ensure it) could be argued as abuse, I am sure DOCS would view it with a particularly dim view.

I got the impression that Jim was potentially going to use the next book to reveal and have Harry deal with some of this stuff, along with anything else he may have to deal with.