Harry should have trusted Ramirez

[forumghost]

The Title is wrong, Ramirez Should Have Trusted Harry. Carlos is keeping secrets from Harry, the tracker, his true instructions from the White Council,  not telling him how he got injured, still refusing to admit he is a virgin, but who is vouching for Carlos?

Have you ever heard the expression "Trust is a Two-Way Street"?

Like yeah, I agree that the Council are a bag of dicks. But here's the thing...

Since when has Harry ever tried to do anything that makes him seem trustworthy to them? The answer is never. He just acts like they should have read his mind and know that he's a good guy, obviously.

Ramirez and the Council don't know that Harry has a brother, just that he's apparently super-tight with a bunch of Mind-Rapists.

Ramirez and the Council don't know about his daughter, just that one day Harry decided to join the Queen of evil faeries and immediately committed genocide.

Ramirez and the Council don't know what happened on Demonreach, just that two demigods were murdered and replaced with people that Harry is allied with.

Ramirez and Harry don't know that it was a double cross, but they probably know that Harry was making friendly with Nicodemus recently.

Remember, if you haven't been reading the books, Harry looks dodgy as fuck.

[Mira]

Since when has Harry ever tried to do anything that makes him seem trustworthy to them? The answer is never. He just acts like they should have read his mind and know that he's a good guy, obviously.

 Actually he has toed the line pretty well, considering.  He has had to, the only time he has really gone against them is when they wanted to give Molly the chop, and in defense of Morgan.  They made him a Warden, they must think he was trustworthy at some point.  He has had to prove himself over and over again.. But there is that faction that has never trusted him ever since he came before them as a scared 16 year old kid with a scary amount of talent..

Ramirez and the Council don't know that Harry has a brother, just that he's apparently super-tight with a bunch of Mind-Rapists.

But that didn't seem to matter to them before.. Do they know how Ramirez got hurt?  That he was trying to have sex with the Winter Lady.. They might want to check his trustworthiness.

Ramirez and the Council don't know about his daughter, just that one day Harry decided to join the Queen of evil faeries and immediately committed genocide.

Actually that genocide was sanctioned by Langtree himself if I remember correctly. The Merlin wanted the Red Court dealt with, had a nice talk with Harry about it, but at the same time wanted to keep his hands clean. Also there is no evidence that the Winter Court is evil, on the contrary one of their Senior Members is helping the Winter Court guard the Outer Gates from Outsiders.

Ramirez and the Council don't know what happened on Demonreach, just that two demigods were murdered and replaced with people that Harry is allied with.

I don't know that you could call the Ladies demi-gods, even so, none of that has a whole lot to do with trusting Harry.

Ramirez and Harry don't know that it was a double cross, but they probably know that Harry was making friendly with Nicodemus recently.

They might also know that he is the keeper of the Holy Swords and that he hangs out with the Holy Knights.

Remember, if you haven't been reading the books, Harry looks dodgy as fuck.

So does the White Council, and your point is?

[forumghost]

My point is that the Council doesn't trust Harry because Harry never bothered to do anything that would actually engineer trust, despite knowing that they didn't like him.

The situation with Ramirez and the rest of the Council sucks, but it's very much a problem of Harry's own making, because as much as the White Council has treated Harry like shit, Harry has equally treated the Council like shit.

Like, this entire conflict could have been avoided, it only happened because Harry refused to interact with the Council except when he needs them to fight a war he started or save him from necromancers.

[KurtinStGeorge]

My point is that the Council doesn't trust Harry because Harry never bothered to do anything that would actually engineer trust, despite knowing that they didn't like him.

The situation with Ramirez and the rest of the Council sucks, but it's very much a problem of Harry's own making, because as much as the White Council has treated Harry like shit, Harry has equally treated the Council like shit.

Like, this entire conflict could have been avoided, it only happened because Harry refused to interact with the Council except when he needs them to fight a war he started or save him from necromancers.

• Harry gained for the Council the right to use the Ways through Farie; or at least Winter's part of it, without which the Council would not have been able to compete with the Red Court.
• Defeating the Necromancers also helped the Council, especially the part that prevented one of them from gaining the power to destroy the Senior Council.  Morgan understood that by the end of Dead Beat.
• Harry exposed a traitor at the heart of power within the White Council.

Harry has done other things that helped the Council, but these are the easy to understand ones.  The last one alone should have gained Harry a fair amount of good will.

[Mira]

My point is that the Council doesn't trust Harry because Harry never bothered to do anything that would actually engineer trust, despite knowing that they didn't like him.

.

 Maybe you answered your own question with that.  Though the Council are wizards, and many of them are hundreds of years old, basically they are still human. Half of them never trusted Harry because of who his mother was, nor liked him.  Harry can gain their respect, which he has, but that isn't the same as trust.  Trust, they will never give him, because they fear him.

Ramirez said, "talk to me.."Those are words police say when they want a confession from a suspect.  He wasn't asking it as a friend, the vibs from Chandler warned Harry of that.  Harry has a right to remain silent because anything he'd say could and would be used against him.   Maybe trust but verify would be more apt here, Ramirez didn't come to Harry as a friend,he came as a cop, he had Harry scanned for recent sexual activity, he came in force [by that I mean he had other Wardens with him], all this screams that Harry was already suspected of something.  So if you were Harry, would you have trusted him?

You also bring up Morgan, what happened to Morgan is reason enough for Harry to be less than trusting, especially in the face of the warning vibs that Chandler was sending him.  Morgan next to Luccio was one of the most trusted Wardens of the Council, he was their chief executioner.  Yet he also fled the Council, not just because he looked guilty, but because he knew they had no interest in any proof of his innocence.  In fact though Harry proved Peabody was behind the murder, and who knows how much more damage he did to the Council with his ink, yet the Council, i.e. the Merlin still felt that it was necessary for Morgan to be found responsible for the murder for political reasons. So we saw at the end of Battle Ground, for political reasons the Council trumps up charges that Harry killed "humans" with magic in battle.  Though these "humans" were altered by the Fomor and no longer human, thus exspelled him from the Council and put him in effect under a death sentence.  Was the angry Carlos acting like a friend when he gave that message to Harry? Did he acknowledge at all that Harry had a huge part in saving all of their bacon?  No, he just accused him of becoming a monster and that he should have talked to him...

And Knight of the Cross Michael cussed in several languages words that even Harry didn't know... 

[prince lotore]

Though I have to say that the councils reasoning of we think Harry has been corrupted let's make sure that he only talks to monsters and let's take away our protection so he would have to make deals with them isn't what I would expect from a group of people with thousands of years of experience. It makes more sense if mab was behind it all. She never struck me as someone who shares well

[forumghost]

Maybe you answered your own question with that.  Though the Council are wizards, and many of them are hundreds of years old, basically they are still human. Half of them never trusted Harry because of who his mother was, nor liked him.  Harry can gain their respect, which he has, but that isn't the same as trust.  Trust, they will never give him, because they fear him.

Ramirez said, "talk to me.."Those are words police say when they want a confession from a suspect.  He wasn't asking it as a friend, the vibs from Chandler warned Harry of that.  Harry has a right to remain silent because anything he'd say could and would be used against him.   Maybe trust but verify would be more apt here, Ramirez didn't come to Harry as a friend,he came as a cop, he had Harry scanned for recent sexual activity, he came in force [by that I mean he had other Wardens with him], all this screams that Harry was already suspected of something.  So if you were Harry, would you have trusted him?

Oh for sure, the time for Harry to start earning the Council's trust was well before Peace Talks. All I'm saying is that if Harry, after acknowledging that he'd need to start playing politics after saving Molly, had actually bothered to... play politics, instead of ignoring the Council until he next wanted a favour, he might have been better off for it. Instead he allowed his enemies on the White Council to act freely, relying on his connection to Eb to keep him in good standing despite never taking part in Council meetings, or doing his Warden duties, or generally acting like he was ever part of the White Council at all.

And Knight of the Cross Michael cussed in several languages words that even Harry didn't know...

I mean yeah, Michael has all the Context and stuff about Harry's actions that make him seem reasonable and not a nut-job, but the Council doesn't because the only times that the Council has seen Harry recently was Turn Coat where hard-core-loyalist-turned-'traitor' Morgan died to save him, and Changes, where he barges into a meeting and tries to murder an envoy before fucking off with no explanation.

The Council are wrong and also assholes, I won't deny it, but it's like... Harry does himself no favours with the way he approaches them, is all I'm saying. Like, I want to shake that boy sometimes and tell him to stop being so anti-social and self-sabotaging.

Though I have to say that the councils reasoning of we think Harry has been corrupted let's make sure that he only talks to monsters and let's take away our protection so he would have to make deals with them isn't what I would expect from a group of people with thousands of years of experience. It makes more sense if mab was behind it all. She never struck me as someone who shares well

Oh yeah I have no doubt that Mab had a hand in this, it feels very much her style. And the fact that the Council just went 'lol lets cut this guy off and hope that someone kills him for us' is really fucking dumb, because it:

A) Cuts off any potential leverage/influence the Council has on him and

B) Makes no fucking sense, since the Council never protected Dresden from jack shit, and everyone knows it. Remember that time when the Council almost sold him to the Red Court? Remember the time when someone sold him on Ebay and they did shit all?

But no, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it was partly either Mab's agents in the Council cutting him off so that he'd be easier to mold, or Black Council agents ensuring Harry didn't ruin their next plan to take over the White Council, or something.

[Mira]

Oh for sure, the time for Harry to start earning the Council's trust was well before Peace Talks. All I'm saying is that if Harry, after acknowledging that he'd need to start playing politics after saving Molly, had actually bothered to... play politics, instead of ignoring the Council until he next wanted a favour, he might have been better off for it. Instead he allowed his enemies on the White Council to act freely, relying on his connection to Eb to keep him in good standing despite never taking part in Council meetings, or doing his Warden duties, or generally acting like he was ever part of the White Council at all.

Just what would you have Harry do in this case?  For at least a year after he saved Molly he was considered dead..  Then for another year Mab confined him to Demonreach.. Actually it was Rashid that restored him to the Council.  After standing up for Molly he was considered a possible political rival for Langtree, a bit of a polarizing figure pitting older wizards verses the younger.  He did uncover Peabody, didn't fight the need to find an innocent Morgan guilty.  So if uncovering the fact that their trusted secretary was using ink to mind rape the lot of them didn't endear Harry to the Council, do you think showing up to meetings and smiling would? 

I mean yeah, Michael has all the Context and stuff about Harry's actions that make him seem reasonable and not a nut-job, but the Council doesn't because the only times that the Council has seen Harry recently was Turn Coat where hard-core-loyalist-turned-'traitor' Morgan died to save him, and Changes, where he barges into a meeting and tries to murder an envoy before fucking off with no explanation.

Michael isn't an ordinary Joe, he is a Holy Knight..  Morgan was no traitor, all of the crap Peabody did was covered up.  And right after that scene you are talking about Langtree takes Harry to one side and says he wants Harry to deal with her and the Red Court, but keep the Council's hands clean... Harry actually manages that, but it didn't earn him any brownie points with the Council.

But no, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it was partly either Mab's agents in the Council cutting him off so that he'd be easier to mold, or Black Council agents ensuring Harry didn't ruin their next plan to take over the White Council, or something.

All of that is BS, the truth of the matter is the Council is scared shitless of Harry.  They may have had a hand in him being a starborn, but he is proving that he isn't their weapon to wield.  He got their attention when he called up Za'Gard,Toot and his little motes of light men proved they could handle the flying squid things when Senior Council members couldn't. He is Warden of Demonreach, not sure if they know he is holder of the Spear or not, being Winter Knight is just a side show.. He has influence in both Winter and Summer Courts, with the Holy Knights, with the White Court, especially if he does marry Lara.  Truth is, once he figures it out, Harry will realize he is a power on to himself that can rival the White Council, and they know it... No amount of playing nice is going to get any amount of trust from the Council.. That ship has sailed if there ever was a ship to sail to begin with..

[forumghost]

Just what would you have Harry do in this case?  For at least a year after he saved Molly he was considered dead..  Then for another year Mab confined him to Demonreach.. Actually it was Rashid that restored him to the Council.

Dude, there was literally 4 years between Molly's trial and the events of Changes. In that time the only interaction the Council had with Harry was
"Hey guys, need you to help me save a bunch of Mind Rapists" (White Knight)
"Hey guys, need you to help me save a Mob Don" (Small Favor) and
"Hey guys I've been sheltering that Traitor you're after, come fight me on my creepy supervillain Island if you don't like it" (Turn Coat).

Like, we know that's not how any of those situations really were, but to the average Council member...

After standing up for Molly he was considered a possible political rival for Langtree, a bit of a polarizing figure pitting older wizards verses the younger.  He did uncover Peabody, didn't fight the need to find an innocent Morgan guilty.  So if uncovering the fact that their trusted secretary was using ink to mind rape the lot of them didn't endear Harry to the Council, do you think showing up to meetings and smiling would?

Not many people knew that, to the Council as a whole Morgan was the main traitor, remember? The Senior Council and other upper echelons is a bit different, but to most, that's how it went down.

Michael isn't an ordinary Joe, he is a Holy Knight..

Michael has one of the weaknesses that all KOTC have- he has to give people the benefit of the doubt, even when they don't deserve it (it's why Murphy didn't make the grade) so him vouching for Harry is a mixed bag, assuming the Council even bothered to notice him, which I doubt.

Morgan was no traitor, all of the crap Peabody did was covered up.

Hence the quotes around 'Traitor'.

And right after that scene you are talking about Langtree takes Harry to one side and says he wants Harry to deal with her and the Red Court, but keep the Council's hands clean... Harry actually manages that, but it didn't earn him any brownie points with the Council.

No, Langtry tells Harry to sit out of it, forget about the random kidnapped girl (nobody knew it was his daughter) and not fuck up the Council's plan to wipe out the Red Court. The fact that Harry went and wiped out the Red's all by himself anyway probably just made them nervous.

All of that is BS, the truth of the matter is the Council is scared shitless of Harry.  They may have had a hand in him being a starborn, but he is proving that he isn't their weapon to wield.  He got their attention when he called up Za'Gard, Toot and his little motes of light men proved they could handle the flying squid things when Senior Council members couldn't
. He is Warden of Demonreach, not sure if they know he is holder of the Spear or not, being Winter Knight is just a side show.. He has influence in both Winter and Summer Courts, with the Holy Knights, with the White Court, especially if he does marry Lara.  Truth is, once he figures it out, Harry will realize he is a power on to himself that can rival the White Council, and they know it... No amount of playing nice is going to get any amount of trust from the Council.. That ship has sailed

I mean yes, I absolutely agree. I just think that if Harry had taken an hour a month to show up to Council meetings, rub a couple shoulders, made a little small-talk, he'd have never had to deal with any of this shit (obviously this would have had to be pre-Changes, since after that he's never had the opportunity to do so).

[Mira]

Dude, there was literally 4 years between Molly's trial and the events of Changes. In that time the only interaction the Council had with Harry was
"Hey guys, need you to help me save a bunch of Mind Rapists" (White Knight)
"Hey guys, need you to help me save a Mob Don" (Small Favor) and
"Hey guys I've been sheltering that Traitor you're after, come fight me on my creepy supervillain Island if you don't like it" (Turn Coat).

Like, we know that's not how any of those situations really were, but to the average Council member...

Um, lets see, rooted out Peabody who had the whole Senior Council by the short hairs with his magical ink.. Oh you forgot to mention that the Denarians were also holding the Archive.. The Archive is a power kind of important to the White Council..  And while most of the Council members may keep their heads up their robes most of the time, the Senior Council doesn't.

Not many people knew that, to the Council as a whole Morgan was the main traitor, remember? The Senior Council and other upper echelons is a bit different, but to most, that's how it went down.

Yeah, that was an interesting cover up don't you think?  Maybe instead of saying Harry has done nothing to earn the Council's trust, maybe you should be asking after that why should Harry trust the Council at all?  Rashid clearly doesn't and keeps stuff from them.

Michael has one of the weaknesses that all KOTC have- he has to give people the benefit of the doubt, even when they don't deserve it (it's why Murphy didn't make the grade) so him vouching for Harry is a mixed bag, assuming the Council even bothered to notice him, which I doubt.

While it is true that Michael doesn't judge, that is for the Almighty, neither does he suffer fools.. Not notice a Holy Knight of the Cross who just happened to have a lot to do with saving a bunch of Senior members of the Council at the end of Proven Guilty?

No, Langtry tells Harry to sit out of it, forget about the random kidnapped girl (nobody knew it was his daughter) and not fuck up the Council's plan to wipe out the Red Court. The fact that Harry went and wiped out the Red's all by himself anyway probably just made them nervous.

It is a little more complicated than that.. What the Merlin tells Harry; page 59 Changes

"Uncounted billionsnow living and yet to be born will be saved if we stop the Red Court from feeding on humanity ever again."

Think about it, the White Council's army is depleted, so what counter attack could they use?  If the Merlin had a handy dandy spell to wipe out the Red Court root and branch, he would have loosed it by now.  So what is about the only way to completely wipe out the Red Court, roots and all, burn the roots and the seed, then salt the earth they fall upon?  Why your handy dandy generational spell of course.. What is worth risking the sacrifice of a little girl's life?  I bet the Merlin knows all about the connection between little Maggie, Harry, to Eb his Blackstaff, he also knows if anyone is capable of reversing and pulling off the reversal of the generational spell it is Harry, so he will gamble with their lives against wiping out the Red Court for good.. One little catch, the Merlin of the White Court cannot be seen to have ordered genocide.  So he doesn't, he tosses Harry into the Brier Patch to figure it out, knowing that he will, and that he will move heaven and earth to save his child, and the only way to do that is reversing the generational spell...That's why he is the Merlin, very clever, if Harry fails, well he is out a star born and a Blackstaff, but the gamble is worth it.

I mean yes, I absolutely agree. I just think that if Harry had taken an hour a month to show up to Council meetings, rub a couple shoulders, made a little small-talk, he'd have never had to deal with any of this shit (obviously this would have had to be pre-Changes, since after that he's never had the opportunity to do so).

No amount of glad handing was ever going to cut it... All the younger wizards were for the most part on Harry's side, which politically speaking also makes him a threat to the Merlin.. So they get him the one way they can by kangaroo court when his most powerful allies are indisposed.. Oh and using a significant event to turn one of his closest Warden friends against him.

[g33k]

... But there is that faction that has never trusted him ever since he came before them as a scared 16 year old kid with a scary amount of talent ...

With 100% of his training being at the hands of a warlock (DuMorne).

With an Outsider involved (and one of the top-tier Outsiders, at that).

Having just killed someone (the selfsame DuMorne) which is an automatic death-sentence.  Yes, we know that "self-defense" can be a viable excuse; still...

With a (not currently clear) something that he was "intended" to be/do.  Was it DuMorne's bully-boy?  Was it the "Starbabe Plan?"  Was it a "Destroyer" (per Morgan's Journal; and whatever is a "Destroyer," anyhow?) ?
We don't know what that "something" is; but we do know that it causes tremendous worry for the Senior Council... and must have done so back when Harry was just 16.

There is plenty of very-good reason to distrust Harry.
It's mostly wrong, of course; but the reasons exist, and they are... reasonable.

[Mira]

With 100% of his training being at the hands of a warlock (DuMorne).

With an Outsider involved (and one of the top-tier Outsiders, at that).

Having just killed someone (the selfsame DuMorne) which is an automatic death-sentence.  Yes, we know that "self-defense" can be a viable excuse; still...

With a (not currently clear) something that he was "intended" to be/do.  Was it DuMorne's bully-boy?  Was it the "Starbabe Plan?"  Was it a "Destroyer" (per Morgan's Journal; and whatever is a "Destroyer," anyhow?) ?
We don't know what that "something" is; but we do know that it causes tremendous worry for the Senior Council... and must have done so back when Harry was just 16.

There is plenty of very-good reason to distrust Harry.
It's mostly wrong, of course; but the reasons exist, and they are... reasonable.

Agreed on all of that, and that faction will never trust Harry for all of the above reasons no matter what he did to try and win it.. However as I have pointed out, very good reasons for Harry not to trust the Council.  The proof that he was right is how they booted him out of the Council when his supporters were not there on trumped up charges..

[g33k]

... Michael has one of the weaknesses that all KOTC have- he has to give people the benefit of the doubt, even when they don't deserve it (it's why Murphy didn't make the grade) so him vouching for Harry is a mixed bag, assuming the Council even bothered to notice him, which I doubt ...

He has to, personally, in the things he does.  But if asked, he does not have to vouch for someone, doesn't have to ask others to extend the chances he extends.

The Archive -- rather cleverly -- looks to Michael for testimony as to Harry's character, when he seems implicated in the attack on her.  The White Council could have done similarly.

I suspect that, once Harry had saved his daughter, the WC would deem Michael's testimony "untrustworthy."

[g33k]

... No, Langtry tells Harry to sit out of it, forget about the random kidnapped girl (nobody knew it was his daughter) and not fuck up the Council's plan to wipe out the Red Court. The fact that Harry went and wiped out the Red's all by himself anyway probably just made them nervous ...

 

... Think about it, the White Council's army is depleted, so what counter attack could they use?  If the Merlin had a handy dandy spell to wipe out the Red Court root and branch, he would have loosed it by now.  So what is about the only way to completely wipe out the Red Court, roots and all, burn the roots and the seed, then salt the earth they fall upon?  Why your handy dandy generational spell of course.. What is worth risking the sacrifice of a little girl's life?  I bet the Merlin knows all about the connection between little Maggie, Harry, to Eb his Blackstaff, he also knows if anyone is capable of reversing and pulling off the reversal of the generational spell it is Harry, so he will gamble with their lives against wiping out the Red Court for good.. One little catch, the Merlin of the White Court cannot be seen to have ordered genocide.  So he doesn't, he tosses Harry into the Brier Patch to figure it out, knowing that he will, and that he will move heaven and earth to save his child, and the only way to do that is reversing the generational spell...That's why he is the Merlin, very clever, if Harry fails, well he is out a star born and a Blackstaff, but the gamble is worth it ...

Yeah, Harry is almost childishly predictable in his opposition to authority.
(I strongly suspect, BTW, that Harry is going to be shocked when he discovers that Arthur Langtry is one of the Grey Council, and fought at Chichen Itza ...       )

  Merlin:  "Harry, stay out of this."
  Harry:  <eyeroll>"Whatever, dude."  <promptly ignores the Merlin>

I don't think the Merlin even needs to know about the Maggie/Harry connection, he just needs to know that Harry does the "protect at all costs" thing about children.

[Ed0517]

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You also bring up Morgan, what happened to Morgan is reason enough for Harry to be less than trusting, especially in the face of the warning vibs that Chandler was sending him.  Morgan next to Luccio was one of the most trusted Wardens of the Council, he was their chief executioner.  Yet he also fled the Council, not just because he looked guilty, but because he knew they had no interest in any proof of his innocence.  In fact though Harry proved Peabody was behind the murder, and who knows how much more damage he did to the Council with his ink, yet the Council, i.e. the Merlin still felt that it was necessary for Morgan to be found responsible for the murder for political reasons. So we saw at the end of Battle Ground, for political reasons the Council trumps up charges that Harry killed "humans" with magic in battle.  Though these "humans" were altered by the Fomor and no longer human, thus exspelled him from the Council and put him in effect under a death sentence.  Was the angry Carlos acting like a friend when he gave that message to Harry? Did he acknowledge at all that Harry had a huge part in saving all of their bacon?  No, he just accused him of becoming a monster and that he should have talked to him...

a different spin....

The Bad Guys are trying to bring down the White Council. They get their claws in Peabody and his inks.  But it is not working, at least not fast enough.  Peabody does use his ink effectively in one area - he infiltrates the Wardens. To watch the wardens, the Bad Guys assign Harry. Peabody gets the Captain of the Wardens and gives her to Harry. This gives Harry insight and info into the wardens.

Plan not moving well enough, they have Luccio and her former apprentice go whack LaFortier. This will open a spot for their man Christos. Morgan gets the more-important-to-the-WC-hierarchy Luccio out, and runs to his ally Dresden to hide him.   The Bad guys say Peabody isn't getting it done, and is a complication - what if someone detects the ink? They tell Harry to reveal him. Peabody runs, the WC dispatches Harry to get him. Harry knows he will have backup coming. Peabody can't be taken alive, he knows too much. Morgan runs too, seeing a chance to escape with his cronies.   Morgan knows Peabody's cover is blown. He's a liability. Peabody can give Morgan up. Morgan takes him out. Morgan succumbs to his wounds. Harry cuts himself with the dagger, knowing help will be here soon, and comes up with the fight story. The traitor Peabody is dead. Morgan, the only one known to be with LaF at the killing, also is dead.  Morgan and Peabody can't give him away. Loose ends tied up.   They even send Christos to the battle of Chicago, in case Harry falls, to ensure the superweapons are recovered.