Harry should have trusted Ramirez

[toodeep]

You don't want to do a field trip you don't want to let people know about the outer Gates because that's just another venue the bad guys to attack. Not everybody is an outsider they might have different reasons to f*** s*** up

All the important people with truly "f*** s*** up" power already know.  Dracul, the mothers, Mab, Titania, the senior council, Denarians, dragons, odin, etc.  They all know about it.  Heck, they all clearly know more about it than Harry since they all know more about Starborn than he does.  I'm talking about him getting some of the people at his level that can serve as speedbumps to him at a critical time in the know to help clear them out of the way.  None of them are going to be threats to the status quo.  But if Fix had known more about this, and maybe understands that "oppose winter at all times" is a bad mantra, then things like them fighting like they did earlier may be avoided in the future.

[TrueMonk]

I think he could have told Carlos on the stairs in the castle the he worked with Lara because of winter stuff and that he was sorry he could not tell him more about it.
Maybe he could also have told him at that point that he has a great girlfriend which he would like to introduce his friend Carlos to at some point, but that it is none of Warden Ramirez business.

So I think he should not have told Carlos much more than he did, but he could have done it ok a nicer way. But then again Harry is a bit less calm than I am and he is living it, not reading it.

[Mira]

I think he could have told Carlos on the stairs in the castle the he worked with Lara because of winter stuff and that he was sorry he could not tell him more about it.

But would that have done any good?  For starters after his failed dance with Molly, Carlos isn't exactly
open to Winter business.  But most importantly he has placed that damn tracking device on Harry on the beach before anything went down, before he started asking Harry trust and talk to him, while he was asking him to be part of his security team!  I agree with B4utoo, would you trust anyone [a supposed friend] who did that to you?  Here's a question, on the beach, why didn't Carlos trust Harry and level with him?  As in, "I know this sucks Harry, but I am being ordered to put this tracking device on you.  I am not sure who, but someone wants your ass pretty badly, just be aware as you move around.."  Now if Carlos had said any thing like that in the first chapter of Peace Talks, Harry might have talked to him and trusted him.. But he did not.

[Cozarkian]

I think he could have told Carlos on the stairs in the castle the he worked with Lara because of winter stuff and that he was sorry he could not tell him more about it.

Not a chance. Time was of the essence. Telling Ramirez anything less than the full truth would have resulted in a longer discussion in which Ramirez demanded more information or at least a better explanation as to why he can't tell them. It also would have immediately informed Ramirez that Harry was in fact planning something and the refusal to explain what Harry was planning would have made Ramirez watch him closely and ruined the plan.

Maybe he could also have told him at that point that he has a great girlfriend which he would like to introduce his friend Carlos to at some point, but that it is none of Warden Ramirez business.

That's a decent point. A clever, socially-adept, charismatic person could have pointed out that he would love to share his personal life with his friend Carlos Ramirez, but he wasn't going to be bullied by Warden Ramirez.

Harry's social skills, however, do not include quick-witted tactful diplomacy and charisma. Rather, Harry is hot-headed, stubborn, hostile toward bullying, and relies on quick-witted juvenile comments in diplomatic situations. Harry thinking of saying something like that in those circumstances would not have been a believable story.

[Mira]

That's a decent point. A clever, socially-adept, charismatic person could have pointed out that he would love to share his personal life with his friend Carlos Ramirez, but he wasn't going to be bullied by Warden Ramirez.

Harry's social skills, however, do not include quick-witted tactful diplomacy and charisma. Rather, Harry is hot-headed, stubborn, hostile toward bullying, and relies on quick-witted juvenile comments in diplomatic situations. Harry thinking of saying something like that in those circumstances would not have been a believable story.

Context is everything, you are leaving out the bit about discovering that his so called trusted friend, Carlos had secretly placed a tracking device on him. That would piss him off just a bit and sort of toss diplomacy out the window. One extra point on that, since he was tracking Harry, Carlos would have known that Harry had spent some time at Murphy's house earlier that day.. Now in fairness, Carlos might not have guess that Harry and Murphy were an item, then again he may have... When you think of it, the sex scan stinks of "frame up."  Suppose because he was tracking him, Carlos knew perfectly well who Harry had had sex with earlier that day, so he orders the sex scan... Of course it is positive, Carlos also knows Harry isn't going to tell him it was Murphy, when she is with in ear shot.  Then Carlos further insinuates that Harry must of recently had sex with Lara.  Which when you think of it doesn't make sense because why would Harry bring Murphy with him then ask her to feed the pigeons while he has sex and plots with Lara?  Then Carlos asks Harry to talk to him, confess what he is plotting, because they are all friends?  Really?  Harry's reaction was perfectly normal, somewhere between WTF is this about?  And pissed that his friend went along with doing this to him..

[vincentric]

Context is everything, you are leaving out the bit about discovering that his so called trusted friend, Carlos had secretly placed a tracking device on him. That would piss him off just a bit and sort of toss diplomacy out the window. One extra point on that, since he was tracking Harry, Carlos would have known that Harry had spent some time at Murphy's house earlier that day.. Now in fairness, Carlos might not have guess that Harry and Murphy were an item, then again he may have... When you think of it, the sex scan stinks of "frame up."  Suppose because he was tracking him, Carlos knew perfectly well who Harry had had sex with earlier that day, so he orders the sex scan... Of course it is positive, Carlos also knows Harry isn't going to tell him it was Murphy, when she is with in ear shot.  Then Carlos further insinuates that Harry must of recently had sex with Lara.  Which when you think of it doesn't make sense because why would Harry bring Murphy with him then ask her to feed the pigeons while he has sex and plots with Lara?  Then Carlos asks Harry to talk to him, confess what he is plotting, because they are all friends?  Really?  Harry's reaction was perfectly normal, somewhere between WTF is this about?  And pissed that his friend went along with doing this to him..

While I agree with your argument on almost all points, you are conflating some scenes. Harry was alone when Ramirez and crew stopped him on the way back from Lara's. That was his first visit where he shared info Lara and she used her first favor to make Harry aid her in Thomas' escape. Murphy was with Harry on the second visit, where they had to elude the three tails. That was when they laid out the plan to Lara. Ramirez was not privy to that trip.

[Cozarkian]

Harry's reaction was perfectly normal, somewhere between WTF is this about?  And pissed that his friend went along with doing this to him..

I agree, Harry's reaction was perfectly normal. But what constitutes "perfectly normal" human behavior is a range and different person's behavior typically fall within different areas of that range.

Some people, who prefer to avoid confrontation, would have told Ramirez they had sex with Murphy. That is perfectly normal human behavior, but it isn't Harry.

Some people, who are good diplomats and good at controlling their emotions, would have made an effort to push back against the bullying while inviting Carlos Ramirez to make a social call later, when he isn't acting as a warden, to discuss any personal concerns he might have about his friend. Again, that is perfectly normal human behavior, but it isn't Harry.

Harry is confrontational, he has trust issues, and issues with bullies. Thus, he pushed back as hard as he could without forcing a violent confrontation. While that is perfectly normal human behavior and the only reasonable expectation of what Harry would do, it probably wasn't the best approach.

Notably, Carlos Ramirez should know Harry well enough to understand that a confrontation like that would only push Harry away. If Carlos had truly been concerned with helping Harry, he would have approached alone. The fact that Carlos brought the team is pretty indicative that he had already decided that Harry was in bed with the White Court.

[Mira]

Some people, who prefer to avoid confrontation, would have told Ramirez they had sex with Murphy. That is perfectly normal human behavior, but it isn't Harry.

Would you have admitted to having sex with the woman you had sex with was present?  Gentlemen don't do that, last I checked Harry was old school gentleman.  Why do the sex test to start with?  Why would Carlos order that?  Especially given the fact that Murphy had gone to the estate with Harry...  Sorry but stinks of a framing..

Some people, who are good diplomats and good at controlling their emotions, would have made an effort to push back against the bullying while inviting Carlos Ramirez to make a social call later, when he isn't acting as a warden, to discuss any personal concerns he might have about his friend. Again, that is perfectly normal human behavior, but it isn't Harry.

Normally I'd agree, but there is also the view point that by secretly implanting that tracking device on Harry earlier, says that Harry was already suspected of something and Carlos went along with it.
How would you feel if a close friend you trust visited you wearing a wire with the intent to catch you in some criminal act?  "Talk to me?"  Really? About what?  That has never been established, and no, it isn't about the assassination attempt, the tracking device was on him before that ever happened.  Harry had nothing to tell him, but from the final conversation between Harry and Carlos at the end of Battle Ground, Carlos already had suspected him of all kinds of stuff back in chapter one of Peace Talks.. It smacks of "star chamber" tactics.

Notably, Carlos Ramirez should know Harry well enough to understand that a confrontation like that would only push Harry away. If Carlos had truly been concerned with helping Harry, he would have approached alone. The fact that Carlos brought the team is pretty indicative that he had already decided that Harry was in bed with the White Court.

If you will remember Carlos did approach Harry alone, in the first chapter of Peace Talks.  It was all friendly chit chat, except Carlos secretly planted a tracking device on him.  Had he already decided Harry was in bed with the White Court?  Maybe but last time I checked the White Court under the Accords were allies of the White Council.. Still doesn't explain the tracking device..  Friends don't do that to their friends..

[TrueMonk]

Just to elaborate on my post above. It would probably not have been very Harry to be diplomatic and calm, I just answered it in the spirit of what do I think the optimal course of action would have been.

Carlos started with the tracking device, but maybe they are equal when Harry uses his trust to make him a distraction and a fool in front of the accorded nations. I can't count the number of times Harry has mentioned never to look weak in front of predators and a guy who already uses a cane being pulled around like an idiot by his jacket looks pretty weak.

Not that I am fan of how Carlos is acting, but I think the winter knight settled the scales on that one.

[vincentric]

Would you have admitted to having sex with the woman you had sex with was present?  Gentlemen don't do that, last I checked Harry was old school gentleman.  Why do the sex test to start with?  Why would Carlos order that?  Especially given the fact that Murphy had gone to the estate with Harry...  Sorry but stinks of a framing..
Normally I'd agree, but there is also the view point that by secretly implanting that tracking device on Harry earlier, says that Harry was already suspected of something and Carlos went along with it.

Go back and reread that chapter. Murphy was not present when Ramirez and the team met Harry. She and Ramirez share no scenes in PT or BG. The closest the two come is when Murphy picks up Thomas, Lara and Freydis outside while Ethniu and Corb are entering the castle.

[Mira]

Go back and reread that chapter. Murphy was not present when Ramirez and the team met Harry. She and Ramirez share no scenes in PT or BG. The closest the two come is when Murphy picks up Thomas, Lara and Freydis outside while Ethniu and Corb are entering the castle.

Where is she then?  Did Harry leave her at the estate?  He took her with him, I believe.  Either way a gentleman doesn't tell...  It doesn't change anything, any trust that Harry may had for Carlos was broken the minute he put that tracker on Harry's arm.

[TrueMonk]

Regarding telling or not. In most cases I think the most natural answer would be: well I have a girlfriend, so if it not with her I am in trouble. But I also live in Denmark and I get the impression that there is a pretty big difference between Denmark and the US in this regard. But here I think Carlos could have handled it a lot better and if he had it would not have resulted in that sort of reaction from Harry.

[Mira]

Regarding telling or not. In most cases I think the most natural answer would be: well I have a girlfriend, so if it not with her I am in trouble. But I also live in Denmark and I get the impression that there is a pretty big difference between Denmark and the US in this regard. But here I think Carlos could have handled it a lot better and if he had it would not have resulted in that sort of reaction from Harry.

Yeah, even for those of us of Danish heritage, all my grandparents came here from the same town in Denmark.  Now granted when I knew them they were elderly, but they had a much more conservative attitude.

But here is a quote from Peace Talks that sums up Harry's reaction and to me justifies it.

"Of the two of us here," I said, "which of us has definitely wronged the other? You suspect that I might have done something wrong.  You've definitelywronged me, trying to find out.  And you did it first."

Which all goes back to Carlos putting the tracking device on Harry to begin with, someone was suspecting that Harry might be doing something wrong way before the assassination attempt. No warning that the White Council wanted his ass, nothing, why should Harry trust him?

Now Chandler did try to warn Harry..

"We have an interest in learning as much as possible."
The way he said we was something new.  He wasn't using the word as an inclusive one,like we are all friends. He was using it as an exclusive term. We, all of us,not you.
He was referring to me as someone outside of the White Council.  His bright blue eyes were direct, almost pleading as he said it, willing me to get the message. I saw recognition flicker in them as he saw me process what he was actually saying: Be advised, Harry.  The White Council now considers you a threat.
Didn't bode too well for that vote.

This says to me that the decision had already been made before Carlos put that tracking device on Harry.  Someone on the Council wanted Harry out, and they were looking for an excuse.. This is what Eb was driving at when he showed up a little later, but Eb was wrong, I doubt that any amount of lobbying on Harry's part would have saved his ass.  When Carlos was asking Harry to trust him and to talk, what he really was doing was fishing for enough rope to hang Harry with..  It meshes nicely with their last conversation in Battle Ground when he breaks the news that Harry was expelled from the Council on trumped up charges. 

[vincentric]

Where is she then?  Did Harry leave her at the estate?  He took her with him, I believe.  Either way a gentleman doesn't tell...  It doesn't change anything, any trust that Harry may had for Carlos was broken the minute he put that tracker on Harry's arm.

The meeting with Lara that Ramirez and crew showed up after is Harry's first visit and he went to that one alone.

He had Murphy with him the second time when they laid out the plan for Thomas' rescue.

And yes, Harry was correct to be angry at Ramirez. Placing that tracker was part of Ramirez's fading trust in Harry.

Neither Ramirez nor Harry cover themselves in diplomatic glory in PT. The time to tell Harry about the Council vote was when he met him on the beach with Thomas. Harry had no obligations at the time and might have agreed to go with him. But instead he drafts Harry into the White Council security team while placing that tracker.

Harry could have not lost his temper and just told them he did not have sex with anyone at Wraith manor,  noyfb who I did have it with.

Given what Ramirez has seen is this. He comes to town to meet Harry Dresden, the Winter Knight,  and sees him going on a morning jog with a vampire. He tells Harry about the Peace Talks and puts the tracker on him. He then tracks him to Wraith manor and confronts him after he leaves. They argue and both leave unsatisfied with what the other tells them.

And the kicker for Carlos is this: Harry threatens him with Molly. Carlos takes it wrong because they are both laboring under a misconception. Carlos thinks Harry knows all about how he was injured so badly by Molly. Harry has no idea that that happened(this occurs while Harry is incommunicado on Demonreach after CD) and Molly can't explain it to him because the  Winter lady mantle(and probably personal shame) stops her.

So Carlos sees is friend falling in with the two groups that have injured him bad enough to hospitalize him. He's been ordered to monitor Harry by the organization he trusts and has dedicated his life to. It sets up an awkward situation and when he clumsily tries to talk to Harry in an inappropriate time and place, Harry reacts poorly and pushes Carlo's buttons with out knowing and Carlos unknowingly places Harry at the edge of three conflicting obligations. 

Harry is justified and Carlos is in the wrong but I can see how they got there and why each feels the way they do at the end.

[Mira]

Given what Ramirez has seen is this. He comes to town to meet Harry Dresden, the Winter Knight,  and sees him going on a morning jog with a vampire. He tells Harry about the Peace Talks and puts the tracker on him. He then tracks him to Wraith manor and confronts him after he leaves. They argue and both leave unsatisfied with what the other tells them.

But that is the whole point!  He secretly puts a tracker under somebody's orders without warning his friend.  That is a knife to the back!  And I repeat, the White Court are part of the Accords like the White Council, they are supposed to be allies.  Carlos also knows Thomas, he isn't just some vampire to him, he even says he can stick around while he talks to Harry about being part of security for the up and coming talks. 

You suspect that I might have done something wrong.  You've definitely wronged me, trying to find out.

Carlos did this because the Council is looking to pin something on Harry, anything! To get him kicked off, Carlos could have warned him of that.  He didn't he went along with it!  He also knew he spent time at Murphy's place a little later, again before, then orders the sex scan and then accusing him of having sex with Lara..

Chandler's message

We, all of us,not you.
He was referring to me as someone outside of the White Council.  His bright blue eyes were direct, almost pleading as he said it, willing me to get the message. I saw recognition flicker in them as he saw me process what he was actually saying: Be advised, Harry.  The White Council now considers you a threat.

Carlos is telling Harry to talk to him and trust him, but Carlos has already bought into the idea that Harry is a threat..  Nothing Harry could have said to him would have changed that, nothing..

Harry also says this in the end of the chapter debating whether or not he should have talked to Carlos because he says he is a good man and he thought at friend, but on the other hand, let is not forget that tracker!

And even if I did, if Carlos really thought I'd been made into someone's sock puppet, he might talk with me and report everything I said back to the Council in an effort to discover what disinformation I'd been trying to give them.

He also goes on to say if Carlos knew he meant to free Thomas, it would make it all worse.