Harry should have trusted Ramirez

[Mira]

Harry’s honesty and forthrightness would have promoted trust… from Ramirez to Harry. 

 Would it have? Under normal circumstances I would agree, but since his experience with Molly,
circumstances are no longer normal for Ramirez.  After what happened, he no longer trusts the Winter Court, which is a normal reaction.  Harry is part of the Winter Court since he is the Winter Knight.  That's what is the main factor for Ramirez no longer trusting Harry, that, and I am sure one or more of Harry's enemies on the Senior Council doing their best to reinforce that.  I don't think there is anything Harry can do or say at the moment to change that. These are truths that Carlos himself has to arrive at.  And since Molly wasn't warned before hand by Mab about sex with mortals, I think it is all part of some long range plan of hers to ultimately divide both Molly and Harry from the mortal world.

[SerScot]

Would it have? Under normal circumstances I would agree, but since his experience with Molly,
circumstances are no longer normal for Ramirez.  After what happened, he no longer trusts the Winter Court, which is a normal reaction.  Harry is part of the Winter Court since he is the Winter Knight.  That's what is the main factor for Ramirez no longer trusting Harry, that, and I am sure one or more of Harry's enemies on the Senior Council doing their best to reinforce that.  I don't think there is anything Harry can do or say at the moment to change that. These are truths that Carlos himself has to arrive at.  And since Molly wasn't warned before hand by Mab about sex with mortals, I think it is all part of some long range plan of hers to ultimately divide both Molly and Harry from the mortal world.

Fair point.  Gggggrrrr…

I like Ramirez.  I hate that he’s being cut away from Harry like this.

[Mira]

Fair point.  Gggggrrrr…

I like Ramirez.  I hate that he’s being cut away from Harry like this.

  As do I, but when Jim makes a significant point of writing a whole short story about how it happened.. Then we find in the first novel in years that Carlos is still crippled by the event, followed by the his attitude towards Harry at their final meeting, it is a set up for the future.  What is sad, I doubt that Harry even knows what happened between Carlos and Molly, so is clueless as to why his friend is suddenly so cold towards him.

[g33k]

I'm still WAG'ing that there's some hope Ramirez still trusts Harry, has the POV that Harry is doing a deep-cover penetration of the Bad Guys to root out the White Council corruption & traitor(s).  Carlos is just going through the motions, paying lip-service to the "Harry Dresden is an incipient warlock... or worse!" party line amongst the more narrow-minded & reactionary (or just frightened) of the White Council.

I'm going back to White Night, where (in the Raith Deeps) he says:

Oh come on, man...  You're lying to me.  You're lying to the Council... I'm not an idiot... You can barely get by in Latin, but you speak Ghoul?  Ancient Etruscan?  ... You're involved with these things.  More than you should be.  You know them too well.  Which is a really fucking disturbing thing to realize, considering we're talking about a race of mind-benders... this whole thing feels more like a setup every second.

But then in the final chapter -- which is a series of "wrap-things-up" vignettes, of which Carlos' is the 4th -- they have their heart-to-heart, which includes:

Harry: "Gee.  A Warden doesn't trust me.  That's a switch."
Ramirez blinked at me.  "What?"
Harry:  "I had Morgan sticking his nose into every corner of my existence for my entire adult life."
Ramirez:  "All hail the drama queen.  Harry... I'm talking about you not trusting me, man."
Harry:  "Uh.  What?"
Ramirez:  "...You think whoever is leaking information to the vampires is pretty high up, and the less anyone in the Council knows about what you're doing, the better... so you can't trust our own people, but "you're cutting deals with the vampires..." He narrowed his eyes. "You think you might be able to find the traitor coming in from the other side."
<snip a bit about Marcone's dealings>
Ramirez spread his hands weakly.  "Was that so damned hard, Dresden?  To talk to me?"
Harry:  "No."
Ramirez snorted gently.  "Idiot."
Harry: "So, think I should come clean to the Merlin?"
Ramirez:  "Are you kidding?  He hates your guts.  He'd have you declared a traitor, locked up, and executed before you got through the first paragraph... But I'm with you, man.  All the way."

So, we see here the deep-cover plot hatched between Harry & Carlos.  Carlos expects Harry to cut shady deals, to hang out with monsters, to alienate the White Council and get in tight with the Bad Guys(^tm).  And Carlos is doing his part, acting like he's losing faith in Harry; even taking steps to "push Harry away" and further demonstrate his "reactionary bona fides."  In short, Carlos is acting like he's becoming a Morgan-esque hardcase.  On his side, he's hoping that the "Bad Guys" will slip up, and he'll spot some clue(s) as to whose loyalties lay with the Black Council rather than the White.

And we see that Carlos knows Harry can be an idiot about these things.  So, while Carlos can't be 100% certain Harry hasn't actually gone Sith-mode, he has seen Harry go to the mat repeatedly... always in favor of humans, and the underdog... and always against the Bad Guys(tm).

Moreover, I suspect Carlos gives a fair bit of weight to the opinions of the Knights of the Cross, who are all friendly with Harry... and that speaks immensely to which side of a fight Harry's going to be on (also, I suspect, it means the Bad Guys will never really be willing to trust Harry, and he's not going to get deep into any of their councils).

[SerScot]

I'm still WAG'ing that there's some hope Ramirez still trusts Harry, has the POV that Harry is doing a deep-cover penetration of the Bad Guys to root out the White Council corruption & traitor(s).  Carlos is just going through the motions, paying lip-service to the "Harry Dresden is an incipient warlock... or worse!" party line amongst the more narrow-minded & reactionary (or just frightened) of the White Council.

I'm going back to White Night, where (in the Raith Deeps) he says:
But then in the final chapter -- which is a series of "wrap-things-up" vignettes, of which Carlos' is the 4th -- they have their heart-to-heart, which includes:
So, we see here the deep-cover plot hatched between Harry & Carlos.  Carlos expects Harry to cut shady deals, to hang out with monsters, to alienate the White Council and get in tight with the Bad Guys(^tm).  And Carlos is doing his part, acting like he's losing faith in Harry; even taking steps to "push Harry away" and further demonstrate his "reactionary bona fides."  In short, Carlos is acting like he's becoming a Morgan-esque hardcase.  On his side, he's hoping that the "Bad Guys" will slip up, and he'll spot some clue(s) as to whose loyalties lay with the Black Council rather than the White.

And we see that Carlos knows Harry can be an idiot about these things.  So, while Carlos can't be 100% certain Harry hasn't actually gone Sith-mode, he has seen Harry go to the mat repeatedly... always in favor of humans, and the underdog... and always against the Bad Guys(tm).

Moreover, I suspect Carlos gives a fair bit of weight to the opinions of the Knights of the Cross, who are all friendly with Harry... and that speaks immensely to which side of a fight Harry's going to be on (also, I suspect, it means the Bad Guys will never really be willing to trust Harry, and he's not going to get deep into any of their councils).

I really hope you’re right.  But being brutalized by Molly… who Harry trained may really have screwed Ramirez up.

[Mira]

I'm still WAG'ing that there's some hope Ramirez still trusts Harry, has the POV that Harry is doing a deep-cover penetration of the Bad Guys to root out the White Council corruption & traitor(s).  Carlos is just going through the motions, paying lip-service to the "Harry Dresden is an incipient warlock... or worse!" party line amongst the more narrow-minded & reactionary (or just frightened) of the White Council.

I'm going back to White Night, where (in the Raith Deeps) he says:
But then in the final chapter -- which is a series of "wrap-things-up" vignettes, of which Carlos' is the 4th -- they have their heart-to-heart, which includes:
So, we see here the deep-cover plot hatched between Harry & Carlos.  Carlos expects Harry to cut shady deals, to hang out with monsters, to alienate the White Council and get in tight with the Bad Guys(^tm).  And Carlos is doing his part, acting like he's losing faith in Harry; even taking steps to "push Harry away" and further demonstrate his "reactionary bona fides."  In short, Carlos is acting like he's becoming a Morgan-esque hardcase.  On his side, he's hoping that the "Bad Guys" will slip up, and he'll spot some clue(s) as to whose loyalties lay with the Black Council rather than the White.

And we see that Carlos knows Harry can be an idiot about these things.  So, while Carlos can't be 100% certain Harry hasn't actually gone Sith-mode, he has seen Harry go to the mat repeatedly... always in favor of humans, and the underdog... and always against the Bad Guys(tm).

Moreover, I suspect Carlos gives a fair bit of weight to the opinions of the Knights of the Cross, who are all friendly with Harry... and that speaks immensely to which side of a fight Harry's going to be on (also, I suspect, it means the Bad Guys will never really be willing to trust Harry, and he's not going to get deep into any of their councils).

White Knight was a while back..  The thing with Molly affected Carlos big time.. The Carlos at the end of Battle Ground isn't the same man as the one we met in White Night.

really hope you’re right.  But being brutalized by Molly… who Harry trained may really have screwed Ramirez up.

Agreed.

[vincentric]

This is the thing that most puzzles me about how people react to Harry. Anybody who researches him has to know that he is on a first name, Christmas dinner, emergency call list basis with all the Knights of the Cross of this past 20 years but they still want to classify him as one step from Kemmler 2.0. The level of distrust in the face of such obvious evidence just baffles me.

[Mira]

This is the thing that most puzzles me about how people react to Harry. Anybody who researches him has to know that he is on a first name, Christmas dinner, emergency call list basis with all the Knights of the Cross of this past 20 years but they still want to classify him as one step from Kemmler 2.0. The level of distrust in the face of such obvious evidence just baffles me.

Agreed.   Trust is a two way street after all.  In other words Carlos should have trusted Harry.. The real low blow was when Ramirez blamed the loss of the other Wardens to the Black Court on Harry. 
Harry had just saved everyone, and Carlos tells Harry that he should have talked to him? No wonder Michael cussed like a drunken sailor in several languages in terms that would even make a drunken sailor blush...

[KurtinStGeorge]

Agreed.   Trust is a two way street after all.  In other words Carlos should have trusted Harry.. The real low blow was when Ramirez blamed the loss of the other Wardens to the Black Court on Harry. 
Harry had just saved everyone, and Carlos tells Harry that he should have talked to him? No wonder Michael cussed like a drunken sailor in several languages in terms that would even make a drunken sailor blush...

That is why I thought Harry should have challenged Carlos at the end of Battle Ground.  I really would have liked Harry to have stood up for himself more forcefully.  It's why I suggested Harry should have said something like this; "OK Carlos, you want to know my secrets, I'll tell you one of them.  Remember when I testified for Morgan and unmasked Peabody as a traitor?  You were there and helped Eb find Peabody's magic ink.  Well, there was something I kept to myself.  There was a second wizard working with Peabody.  I didn't have any solid evidence I could present to the Council and I don't know who it was; he or she must have known a different Way to get to the island than Peabody did, but I know someone else was there.  For all I know it could have been you, but I don't think you would betray the Council so I'm willing to risk telling you this.  Now ask yourself, who will you talk to about this new information I just gave you?  Whoever on the Council you report to or might want to consult with could be the traitor or they might unknowingly tell the traitor what you reported to them.  And that's probably the least dangerous secret that I am keeping and none of them have anything to do with Drakul.  There's nothing I could have told you that would have changed what happened to Yoshino, Bill or Chandler.  You can believe me or not.  One day you will find out the truth and feel really stupid when you do."

I really didn't like the way Harry took that abuse and only made a somewhat cryptic reply back to Carlos in return.  There are probably a number of other replies Harry might have made that would have been better than what he came up with.  Even something like. "Yes, I keep secrets Carlos.  So does everyone of significance on the Council.  One thing I can tell you is none of my secrets have anything to do with Drakul..." and continued from there.     

[Mira]

I really didn't like the way Harry took that abuse and only made a somewhat cryptic reply back to Carlos in return.  There are probably a number of other replies Harry might have made that would have been better than what he came up with.  Even something like. "Yes, I keep secrets Carlos.  So does everyone of significance on the Council.  One thing I can tell you is none of my secrets have anything to do with Drakul..." and continued from there.     

Agreed, only excuse I can see as to why Harry didn't hit back, is between exhaustion, his injuries [remember a Winter Knight can block the pain, but not the damage], and his grief over Murphy, Harry was very vulnerable... Carlos simply kicked him when he was down, as did the Council.

[g33k]

Agreed, only excuse I can see as to why Harry didn't hit back, is between exhaustion, his injuries [remember a Winter Knight can block the pain, but not the damage], and his grief over Murphy, Harry was very vulnerable... Carlos simply kicked him when he was down, as did the Council.

Also, just that Harry *likes* Carlos, has been thinking of him as a friend.
In the face of someone he thinks of as an enemy -- the Merlin, or Mavra, or early/mid Morgan -- he's VERY verbally aggressive.

In the face of a friend -- even a currently-becoming-a-not-friend -- he's much less so.

[Mira]

Also, just that Harry *likes* Carlos, has been thinking of him as a friend.
In the face of someone he thinks of as an enemy -- the Merlin, or Mavra, or early/mid Morgan -- he's VERY verbally aggressive.

In the face of a friend -- even a currently-becoming-a-not-friend -- he's much less so.

Yes, it was just one more blow that Harry had to suffer, because that he had considered Carlos a friend.  That is one of the main things I think that really set Michael off.  It would have been an interesting scene, if Michael had been able to tell Carlos what he really thought.

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Michael is the one person who knows pretty much everything about Harry, possession by a shadow Denarian, suicide attempt, superweapons, Demonreach, his family and still loves and respects Harry. If Carlos cannot take Harry’s word, he should be able to take that of Michael Carpenter former Knight of the Cross, fellow Catholic and living saint (I think he is still an agent of the White God, but in a different fashion, like but unlike Father Forthill).

Carlos couldn’t do that and made Michael swear.

The Title is wrong, Ramirez Should Have Trusted Harry. Carlos is keeping secrets from Harry, the tracker, his true instructions from the White Council,  not telling him how he got injured, still refusing to admit he is a virgin, but who is vouching for Carlos?

[Mira]

Michael is the one person who knows pretty much everything about Harry, possession by a shadow Denarian, suicide attempt, superweapons, Demonreach, his family and still loves and respects Harry. If Carlos cannot take Harry’s word, he should be able to take that of Michael Carpenter former Knight of the Cross, fellow Catholic and living saint (I think he is still an agent of the White God, but in a different fashion, like but unlike Father Forthill).

Carlos couldn’t do that and made Michael swear.

The Title is wrong, Ramirez Should Have Trusted Harry. Carlos is keeping secrets from Harry, the tracker, his true instructions from the White Council,  not telling him how he got injured, still refusing to admit he is a virgin, but who is vouching for Carlos?

At this point?  No one, he is a Warden of the White Council, he needs no one.  Maybe that's part of the problem, it could be how Justin, a trusted Warden was able to steal Bob under their noses during that final raid on Kemmler and go warlock.. Heck, he might have been already a warlock at that point.

[prince lotore]

Has anyone brought up when Harry needed to be talking to people and reassuring them that he hasn't gone rougue Carlos forces him to work security. Carlos knew about the vote before Harry did and he chose let him get thrown out just to keep a closer eye on him. In my opinion Carlos has sold himself and is not Harry's friend