Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?

[SerScot]

It was still her decision to do it, her choice..  Harry cannot be held responsible because his brain wasn't working right at the time.  What proves that point, is he didn't think beyond his death, what about his little girl?  He knows how terrible it is to be left as an orphan, yet consign his daughter to that fate?  No, is the answer, he wouldn't.. I also think that added to the guilt trip of his own when it comes to Maggie, it wasn't just killing her mother, who was no longer human by the way, but his willingness to leave her an orphan

This reminds me of Harry’s first meeting with Thomas in Cold Days I’ve always felt Thomas’ criticism and anger at Harry was fully justified.  That Harry’s guilt and frustration with himself equally justified.  Yes, Harry was played with and pushed by a fallen, but, he was driving down that road before he got that last little nudge. 

Harry’s guilt at excluding and by extension judging Thomas was perfectly appropriate.  As is his guilt over failing Molly.

[morriswalters]

Here's the thing.  Harry can't control anyone but himself.  Whatever he does is on him. It isn't on Molly or anyone else. Molly may well have made bad decisions of her own.  But this is about what Harry did. If your personal code says something is wrong and you do it anyway, then it's wrong.

Harry tells Susan this at the beginning of Changes.

“Susan. Whatever happens from here . . . we’re done.” I looked up at her. “You know that. You knew it when you chose not to tell me.”

If you tell her it's over, then it's over.  And you have given up the right to make decisions of any type where that individual is concerned. And Harry tricked Susan into changing.  And he knew he was doing it.

If Molly abused her magic or came anywhere near violating any of the Laws of Magic, she’d be executed at once—and I’d join her.

He knew the price she might have to pay and he asked anyway.  It isn't all that hard. And he left her to face the music alone.

[SerScot]

  And Harry tricked Susan into changing.  And he knew he was doing it.

You are the first person I’ve seen mention that fact.  Why do we never talk about Harry lying to Susan?

[Arjan]

You are the first person I’ve seen mention that fact.  Why do we never talk about Harry lying to Susan?

We did talk about it in previous threads.

Because it did not get Harry’s attention later. It was not the thing Harry was guilty about probably because it was overshadowed by the killing itself.

I don’t know if Susan believed that lie but I do not think she cared. She was as single minded as Harry at that point. It achieved what she wanted most and she got the complete red court as a bonus.

The whole action was completely within the spirit of their agreement.

[morriswalters]

This is about Harry's hero journey.  How does he evolve as a character if these defects don't exist? It isn't that Harry must be completely moral, but he must recognize when he crosses lines that he's drawn, and mistakes he's made.

[Mira]

   Trick Susan?  What do you think she would have done once her daughter's throat was cut?  The one who really screwed Susan was Martin, not Harry.  Martin was the one playing both sides and got little Maggie kidnapped in the first place.  Oh yeah, desperate, Harry made sure she knew, hoping that she'd turn, but what he did, was make sure her turning saved their daughter as well as himself and his grandfather.  Yeah, he feels guilty about it, but that doesn't make him wrong. 

This is also about choices both made long before the above moment...

[Arjan]

   Trick Susan?  What do you think she would have done once her daughter's throat was cut?  The one who really screwed Susan was Martin, not Harry.  Martin was the one playing both sides and got little Maggie kidnapped in the first place.  Oh yeah, desperate, Harry made sure she knew, hoping that she'd turn, but what he did, was make sure her turning saved their daughter as well as himself and his grandfather.  Yeah, he feels guilty about it, but that doesn't make him wrong. 

This is also about choices both made long before the above moment...

Well he lied. If you are an all lies are equally and terrible wrong type of person then the discussion is over.

If you go for a utilitarian morality then I do not think Harry did anything wrong at that moment. Destroying the red court brought the greatest good for the most people.

[morriswalters]

To kill off the Reds Martin used everybody. And Harry uses that knowledge he gains from the soul gaze just as ruthlessly as Martin.  Jim lays to out clearly.

I knew how angry she was. I knew how afraid she was. Her child was about to die only inches beyond her reach, and what I did to her was as good as murder.

I focused my thoughts and sent them to Susan. Susan! Think! Who knew who the baby’s father was? Who could have told them?

Her lips peeled away from her teeth.

His knife can’t hurt you, I thought, though I knew damned well that no faerie magic could blithely ignore the touch of steel.

So who is the hero of the story?

[Mira]

To kill off the Reds Martin used everybody. And Harry uses that knowledge he gains from the soul gaze just as ruthlessly as Martin.  Jim lays to out clearly.

Just as ruthlessly? Really?   Martin had a plan, but would it have worked? Just what was his plan?  He was willing to kill off all of his followers, he was willing to kill off an innocent little girl and her family and did murder her adopted family.. You compare that with what Harry did? 

I knew how angry she was. I knew how afraid she was. Her child was about to die only inches beyond her reach, and what I did to her was as good as murder.

I focused my thoughts and sent them to Susan. Susan! Think! Who knew who the baby’s father was? Who could have told them?

Her lips peeled away from her teeth.

Yes, he may look at it that way, but at the same time it was the only way to save their daughter. You think Susan shouldn't have known the truth that it was Martin who set up her child to be coldly sacrificed to kill her father and grandfather. And if Harry wasn't so ruthless as you put it, what would have happened do you suppose?  I can tell you how it stood in that moment and if Harry hadn't told Susan the truth or helped her to see the truth.. Five minutes later, dead Maggie, dead, Harry, dead Eb, Susan turning once she sees her child murdered, and failing and still dead..

His knife can’t hurt you, I thought, though I knew damned well that no faerie magic could blithely ignore the touch of steel.

Yeah, he said that but do you really think it made any difference to Susan whether or not a knife could hurt her once she went over the edge, began to turn and rip Martin's throat out.. Or say, Harry didn't say the knife couldn't have hurt her, do you think it would have changed anything once Susan saw her baby's throat being cut and she realized who staged it? 

Well he lied. If you are an all lies are equally and terrible wrong type of person then the discussion is over.

Yeah, but that kind of belief is a bit hypercritical or falls into the "he who is without sin cast the first stone," category.   No one is that pure and truthful 100% of the time..

If you go for a utilitarian morality then I do not think Harry did anything wrong at that moment. Destroying the red court brought the greatest good for the most people.

It did, and Harry made some very difficult choices, his main aim was to save his daughter.  And even though one can argue with plenty of certainty that his decisions were right given the outcome.  Harry still feels guilty because a lot of people still died. 

So who is the hero of the story?

I don't think there is one hero of this story.

[morriswalters]

How is Martin's behavior functionally different than Harry's? The only difference that I can see is the desired outcome. Martin meant to end the Reds.  Harry meant to save his daughter. Killing the Reds was a happy accident. Only Martin made it possible for any of them to survive. 

You may not like that but you would need to take it up with the author. That was the story he wrote.  That makes Martin the Hero. The whole mission was a suicide run until that point. Going in, Harry neither knew the Grey Council would step in, or had any idea that Martin would give him the final weapon he would need.

I was very excited when I read Changes the first time, but this type of thing is what is getting old.  Changes is a demonstration of dumb luck. The only one with a clear idea of what he wanted to accomplish was Martin.  Harry only understands it as Martin dies.  This ain't no way to run a railroad.

[Mira]

How is Martin's behavior functionally different than Harry's? The only difference that I can see is the desired outcome. Martin meant to end the Reds.  Harry meant to save his daughter. Killing the Reds was a happy accident. Only Martin made it possible for any of them to survive.

What Martin did was planned over several years, and he was using everyone.  He was also fine with the slaughter of Maggie's adoptive family.  It was Martin's actions telling the Red King where and who little Maggie was that set all of this off.  That sent Susan off to tell Harry, and it all flows from there.  If Martin hadn't set any about little Maggie, the Red King wouldn't have attempted his spell to kill Eb etc.. Harry would never had known about Maggie, and things would have gone on as before, with the exception that the Red Court most likely have continued.  And no the end of the Red Court was no accident, it was Harry's skill and hard choices that reversed the whole thing and wiped out the Red Court.

You may not like that but you would need to take it up with the author. That was the story he wrote.  That makes Martin the Hero. The whole mission was a suicide run until that point. Going in, Harry neither knew the Grey Council would step in, or had any idea that Martin would give him the final weapon he would need.

I don't see Martin as the hero at all, not even remotely, nor do I see in any way that it was written that way.  The end doesn't always justify the means.

I was very excited when I read Changes the first time, but this type of thing is what is getting old.  Changes is a demonstration of dumb luck. The only one with a clear idea of what he wanted to accomplish was Martin.  Harry only understands it as Martin dies.  This ain't no way to run a railroad.

Not exactly, Martin was always head of the Resistance, they had goals.  What Harry and everyone else didn't know was he saw everyone as his pawns to achieve his goal.  Yeah, well a lot of things work out in the end due to dumb luck.  Martin was an excellent double agent, no one was supposed to know who's side he was on.  That doesn't make him a hero, at the end he was more about gloating as to how he had everyone fooled than ending the Red Court.

[Arjan]

To kill off the Reds Martin used everybody. And Harry uses that knowledge he gains from the soul gaze just as ruthlessly as Martin.  Jim lays to out clearly.So who is the hero of the story?

Susan 

[SerScot]

Susan 

She certainly gave more than anyone else.

[morriswalters]

What was Harry's plan for Chicken Pizza?  What series of steps would have ended with Maggie and Harry walking off into the sunset talking about Big Bird? Could you aim me at it?

I'm pretty sure that Jim didn't want you to see Martin as the Hero.  He was suppose to be the tragic figure. However it was his plan and not Harry's that killed the Red King. Harry was simply the dagger.

Everything he had done, I realized, he had done for one reason: to be sure that I was standing here when it happened. To give me a chance to change everything.

There aren't very many ways to parse that, are there?

Susan 

[Mira]

What was Harry's plan for Chicken Pizza?  What series of steps would have ended with Maggie and Harry walking off into the sunset talking about Big Bird? Could you aim me at it?

I don't claim that he had one, his only desire was to save his child, himself, and his grandfather from death.  In contrast, Martin had been setting things up coldly for years playing both sides. All Harry had were a small group of friends willing to put it on the line to help him, a strong talent, the knowledge how to reverse the Red King's spell back at him, and in desperation the will to make the final very hard choices.

I'm pretty sure that Jim didn't want you to see Martin as the Hero.  He was suppose to be the tragic figure. However it was his plan and not Harry's that killed the Red King. Harry was simply the dagger.

I don't see Martin as a tragic figure either, he had Susan's total trust, then betrayed her when he told the Red King where little Maggie was. 

    Everything he had done, I realized, he had done for one reason: to be sure that I was standing here when it happened. To give me a chance to change everything.

No, it was at best a gamble.

Susan

Yes, in the end she was a hero, but. . .