Author Topic: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?  (Read 10209 times)

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2021, 01:27:18 AM »
It isn't about Molly.  It's about Harry.  It doesn't matter why he did it.  No outcome is ever about the events of that moment.  He made the choice of how he was going to live and what happened was a direct result of that choice. Every step Harry takes has consequences and he moves like a bull in a china shop.

Frankly it's starting to get old, at least for me.  Jim needs to raise his game and get on with it.  It looked like Skin Game could have been that book But the followup brought out every bad habit he has.

Offline Mira

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2021, 01:40:06 AM »
It isn't about Molly.  It's about Harry.  It doesn't matter why he did it.  No outcome is ever about the events of that moment.  He made the choice of how he was going to live and what happened was a direct result of that choice. Every step Harry takes has consequences and he moves like a bull in a china shop.

Frankly it's starting to get old, at least for me.  Jim needs to raise his game and get on with it.  It looked like Skin Game could have been that book But the followup brought out every bad habit he has.

Sure it is about Molly, and the choices she made as well.  Harry didn't do anything to her that she hadn't already done to herself.  If she was this poor victim of Harry's manipulation, Mab wouldn't have taken any interest in her and she'd suck worse than Lily as Lady..

Harry has made some bad choices, but he also made a lot of good choices as well.  No, he didn't make a choice as to how he was going to live.. He didn't chose for his mother to be murdered shortly after his birth, he didn't chose for his father to be murdered when he was six, he didn't chose to live in an orphanage for the next five years or to be adopted by a warlock who wanted to make a weapon out of him.. He didn't chose to have magical talent, he didn't chose to be star born, he didn't chose to have a real fae godmother, nor did he chose to have a vampire brother...  All those things shaped him and they were not of his choosing.  He's worked his way around them as best he could, with mixed results.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2021, 04:57:41 AM »
You make it sound like Harry coldly and calculatingly put her in that position. 
That is another point that comes up regularly in the books, your emotions are not always your best councilors. No it was not coldly and calculatingly but it was what he did.
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It didn't go down that way, plain and simple.  Harry was at the end of his rope, mentally, physically, emotionally, he was choosing death/suicide rather than become a monster.  However he couldn't do it alone.  Yes, it put Molly in a tough position, but to think she didn't understand and made her own choice, you are mistaken..
She shared Harry’s misunderstanding but again Molly’s agency is not the point, this is about what Harry did.

Harry was in a position of power and responsibility over Molly. That makes all matters of consent troublesome. That is not just about sex, that is about everything. That is why how Harry guided her was so important.
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That is why she doesn't hold a grudge towards Harry. 
That is nice but not the point. And the downside of it is that she held a grudge towards herself.
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Yes, he put her in a tough position so do a lot of desperate people who ask of us stuff that maybe they shouldn't.  However agreeing to it or not agreeing is her choice..
But this is not “The Carpenter files”. Asking for it was Harry’s choice.

And all the emotional turmoil makes it understandable but not right. At the base of his decision was Harry’s refusal to research things he fears. He did not even know basic things about being winter knight.
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Yes, that was hard on her, but consider the alternative, if little Maggie, Harry, and Eb all died at once or Harry's worst fears about being Winter Knight came true and he ended up like Slate.. What would that do to her head if she had chosen to say, no..
The alternative was simple. No suicide and bring Kincaid in stead of Molly. I know about the words of the fallen but Molly did not.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2021, 03:32:34 PM »
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That is another point that comes up regularly in the books, your emotions are not always your best councilors. No it was not coldly and calculatingly but it was what he did.

Yes, but how it that different than any two people who are close, one is suffering and the other agrees to prevent that suffering?  Like I said, assisted suicides happen every day and are agreed upon by the two parties.  I also think both Harry and Molly were convinced at that point in time that it would be bad not just for Harry but for the world in general to be Winter Knight.  Yes, emotions are not the best to go on, but as humans that is what we often do.  I don't think Harry can be condemned or praised on this, it is what it is... Human, and Molly reacted in kind.  As I said earlier I don't think her situation would have been better if Harry hadn't asked her.
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She shared Harry’s misunderstanding but again Molly’s agency is not the point, this is about what Harry did.

Harry was in a position of power and responsibility over Molly. That makes all matters of consent troublesome. That is not just about sex, that is about everything. That is why how Harry guided her was so important.
True, but at the same time the position Harry was in and his mental/emotional state cannot be discounted.  Because of that I feel that he cannot be held fully responsible for what he asked of Molly.  Actually not unlike Rudolph shooting Murphy, a lot led up to that moment, the attack on Chicago took him over the edge. 
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That is nice but not the point. And the downside of it is that she held a grudge towards herself.

But that is also a no win, if she hadn't tried to help Harry I think she would have felt just as guilty.  And it is debatable whether or not she had been cured of her tendency to break one of the Laws of Magic by going into people's heads if she thinks it is important she do so.
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But this is not “The Carpenter files”. Asking for it was Harry’s choice.

And all the emotional turmoil makes it understandable but not right. At the base of his decision was Harry’s refusal to research things he fears. He did not even know basic things about being winter knight.

But in a sense it is just as much Carpenter Files, because Molly also made a choice, freely.

Harry did try to research his fears, the example before him was Slate.. He did ask Bob, who didn't have exactly the kind of reassuring answers you want if you want to have anything to do with the Winter Court.  Of course those answers were based on Bob's own prejudices, but other than Lea, [who didn't give straight answers either], the information was, what it was. 
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The alternative was simple. No suicide and bring Kincaid in stead of Molly. I know about the words of the fallen but Molly did not.
Not that simple as you know, he did bring Kincaid into it, but if that fact remained in his mind, Mab would know and stop the suicide.. That is why Molly was brought in.. As to the Lasciel effect, no, Molly didn't know about that, she only knew about Harry's mental/emotional state at the time.  What we don't know is whether or not she tried to talk him out of it.  You have to consider Kincaid as well, yeah, he likes the money and all, but he also went along with it.  That is what pissed Ivy off so much.  I don't think it was just Harry in a power position over Molly, but that given her information she agreed with him about the Winter Knight gig, as did Kincaid given his information.
It wasn't Harry deliberately taking advantage of Molly, he turned to her because there was no one else.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2021, 08:59:13 PM by Mira »

Online Snark Knight

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2021, 12:15:37 AM »
At the end of Changes, Molly was physically hurt, but still "clean" as far as the Council goes. Remember at the end of Turn Coat,Morgan says he said nothing about her backsliding to the Council. Would Luccio even be believed if she did decide to finger Molly because of all the psychological damage done to her by Peabody's ink.

Luccio also didn't have a whole lot of latitude to complain about someone peeking at whether her mind had been tampered with, when it had, after OK'ing Molly checking Harry for mental tampering when Michael noticed the removal of fire from his inventory.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2021, 02:32:29 AM »
Luccio also didn't have a whole lot of latitude to complain about someone peeking at whether her mind had been tampered with, when it had, after OK'ing Molly checking Harry for mental tampering when Michael noticed the removal of fire from his inventory.
Which might not even be a violation of the law, it could be that Harry and Morgan are just too strict. We know the rules can change somewhat when you want or do not want to behead someone.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2021, 04:47:46 PM »
Luccio also didn't have a whole lot of latitude to complain about someone peeking at whether her mind had been tampered with, when it had, after OK'ing Molly checking Harry for mental tampering when Michael noticed the removal of fire from his inventory.

I doubt the Council knew about Molly checking Harry, but yeah, unauthorized, it is against the Law.  Now perhaps you can make a plea, she had good reason and a Holy Knight asked her, but it still was breaking the Law.  They are overly strict, technically Harry and Molly were breaking the Law when they did their mental sparing to over come the inadequate mental defense techniques that the Council allows that almost got Harry killed.  Remember the Corpsetaker making fun of Harry, because he didn't have a chance against her using the sanctioned mental defense technique that he was legally allowed.
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Which might not even be a violation of the law, it could be that Harry and Morgan are just too strict. We know the rules can change somewhat when you want or do not want to behead someone.
Oh I doubt they changed that Law much if at all, that is why Morgan told Harry with his dying breath that he hadn't turned in Molly.  Both Molly and Harry would have been toast, and at the time when she tried to go into their heads they didn't act like the Law had been relaxed, and actually neither did Mouse.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2021, 05:45:28 PM »
I doubt the Council knew about Molly checking Harry, but yeah, unauthorized, it is against the Law. Now perhaps you can make a plea, she had good reason and a Holy Knight asked her, but it still was breaking the Law.  They are overly strict, technically Harry and Molly were breaking the Law when they did their mental sparing to over come the inadequate mental defense techniques that the Council allows that almost got Harry killed. 
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The sparring did not break the law because they invited each other to do so, it was technically not an invasion. That is important. I don’t think Harry would have done it if it was a violation of the laws anyway. He might do such things under pressure when he sees no way out but deliberately after thinking about it several times? Unlikely.

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Remember the Corpsetaker making fun of Harry, because he didn't have a chance against her using the sanctioned mental defense technique that he was legally allowed. Oh I doubt they changed that Law much if at all, that is why Morgan told Harry with his dying breath that he hadn't turned in Molly.  Both Molly and Harry would have been toast, and at the time when she tried to go into their heads they didn't act like the Law had been relaxed, and actually neither did Mouse.
The law does not change but the interpretation changes over time and over persons and the interpretation can be politically motivated. Lucio seems to be more relaxed about some grey areas and Morgan is very strict. But Lucio has the laws ingrained in her very person as well, that is why even enthralled she used a knife to kill.

Also how Morgan reacted on the dinosaur was different from how the others reacted.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2021, 07:43:46 PM »
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The sparring did not break the law because they invited each other to do so, it was technically not an invasion. That is important. I don’t think Harry would have done it if it was a violation of the laws anyway. He might do such things under pressure when he sees no way out but deliberately after thinking about it several times? Unlikely.

I don't disagree, but if that is completely kosher with the Council, then why are the mental defensive techniques taught to and allowed by the Council so pathetic?

This is what Harry says about it in Dead Beat page 166 paperback
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Gulp. Mental magic is a dark, dark, dark grey area of the art.  Every wizard who makes it to the White Council has received training in how to defend against mental assaults, but it is perfunctory at best.  After all the Council made it a special point to wipe out wizards who violated the sanctuary of another's mind.  It's one of the Laws of Magic, and if the Wardens caught someone doing it, they killed them, end of story.  There was no such thing as an expert at that kind of magic on the White Council, and as a result the defense training was devised by relative amateurs..
 

Presumably if you are a new member of the Council you receive defensive training, but it is almost useless because 1] they have no experts in mind magic, 2] they are so afraid of it and of breaking the law, they barely teach it..  So given that explanation, even though they gave each other full permission to spar, Harry and Molly were walking a dangerous tightrope between legal and not legal.  Given the charges against Molly to begin with, this could have been an excuse to lop off both Harry and Molly's heads. 
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The law does not change but the interpretation changes over time and over persons and the interpretation can be politically motivated. Lucio seems to be more relaxed about some grey areas and Morgan is very strict. But Lucio has the laws ingrained in her very person as well, that is why even enthralled she used a knife to kill.
The interpretation hadn't changed, Morgan was grateful to Harry for trying to save him and prove his innocence. He was also grateful to him for exposing Peabody and thus saving Luccio as well.  He also in the end found out what it was like to be a hounded man by an over zealous enforcer, so he didn't turn in Molly. What I believe is, if it had been the old Morgan of a few books before Proven Guilty, both Harry and Molly would have lost their heads on the spot.  As far as Luccio goes, she was so damaged and for intents and purposes enthralled by Peabody, if she made any charges I think they'd have been mostly ignored.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2021, 03:58:32 AM by Mira »

Offline Arjan

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2021, 06:26:57 AM »
The interpretation can be pretty flexible as we have seen several times and some things that are not really violations of the law can be enough to have your head cut off if the council wants to. As soon as you get in the grey area it can become politics pretty fast and they don’t have to be consistent or even rational about it if it suits them.
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Offline SerScot

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2021, 02:34:02 PM »
Multiple POV tends to break the story. I want to skip chapters to continue with the POV I was reading.

I do… until I keep reading and get intersted in the new chapter.
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Mab =/= Molly

Malcom =/= KotC

Offline SerScot

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2021, 02:46:10 PM »
You make it sound like Harry coldly and calculatingly put her in that position.  It didn't go down that way, plain and simple.  Harry was at the end of his rope, mentally, physically, emotionally, he was choosing death/suicide rather than become a monster.  However he couldn't do it alone.  Yes, it put Molly in a tough position, but to think she didn't understand and made her own choice, you are mistaken.. That is why she doesn't hold a grudge towards Harry.  Yes, he put her in a tough position so do a lot of desperate people who ask of us stuff that maybe they shouldn't.  However agreeing to it or not agreeing is her choice.. Yes, that was hard on her, but consider the alternative, if little Maggie, Harry, and Eb all died at once or Harry's worst fears about being Winter Knight came true and he ended up like Slate.. What would that do to her head if she had chosen to say, no..

Harry literally said he’d let the world burn to save Maggie.  Uriel pointed out how he failed Molly with that blinkered view.  Uriel was right.  Molly followed Harry’s lead.  She trusted him.  Asking Molly to assist his suicide damaged Molly severely whether she holds a grude or not.  Harry owns that terrible mistake.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2021, 02:51:19 PM by SerScot »
"Maybe there will be a laundry emergency at the Carpenter house, and Harry shows up with detergent saying, 'I am Harry of the White Council. And I come back to you now at the turn of the TideTM.'" -  Vairelome 9/25/2011

Mab =/= Molly

Malcom =/= KotC

Offline SerScot

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2021, 02:48:46 PM »
It isn't about Molly.  It's about Harry.  It doesn't matter why he did it.  No outcome is ever about the events of that moment.  He made the choice of how he was going to live and what happened was a direct result of that choice. Every step Harry takes has consequences and he moves like a bull in a china shop.

Frankly it's starting to get old, at least for me.  Jim needs to raise his game and get on with it.  It looked like Skin Game could have been that book But the followup brought out every bad habit he has.

Yeah.  I have to agree.  Skin Game is a damn good book that seemed to stretch Harry and force the character to grow.  Peace Talks/Battle Ground felt like a return to Harry of the first three to five books.  It was really odd.
"Maybe there will be a laundry emergency at the Carpenter house, and Harry shows up with detergent saying, 'I am Harry of the White Council. And I come back to you now at the turn of the TideTM.'" -  Vairelome 9/25/2011

Mab =/= Molly

Malcom =/= KotC

Offline Mira

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2021, 06:42:30 PM »
Harry literally said he’d let the world burn to save Maggie.  Uriel pointed out how he failed Molly with that blinkered view.  Uriel was right.  Molly followed Harry’s lead.  She trusted him.  Asking Molly to assist his suicide damaged Molly severely whether she holds a grude or not.  Harry owns that terrible mistake.

It was still her decision to do it, her choice..  Harry cannot be held responsible because his brain wasn't working right at the time.  What proves that point, is he didn't think beyond his death, what about his little girl?  He knows how terrible it is to be left as an orphan, yet consign his daughter to that fate?  No, is the answer, he wouldn't.. I also think that added to the guilt trip of his own when it comes to Maggie, it wasn't just killing her mother, who was no longer human by the way, but his willingness to leave her an orphan

Offline Arjan

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Re: Why didn’t Molly go to Eb or Listens to Wind as Harry suggested?
« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2021, 08:07:56 PM »
It was still her decision to do it, her choice.. 
Which does not reduce Harry’s responsibility at all. For Molly’s conversations with Uriel see “The Carpenter Files”
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Harry cannot be held responsible because his brain wasn't working right at the time. 
Uriel disagreed. He helped Harry because the fallen crossed a line but he was pretty clear about what was wrong about Harry’s interactions with Molly and who was responsible.

And he did his best to explain it to Harry. Let Molly burn.
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What proves that point, is he didn't think beyond his death, what about his little girl?  He knows how terrible it is to be left as an orphan, yet consign his daughter to that fate?  No, is the answer, he wouldn't.. I also think that added to the guilt trip of his own when it comes to Maggie, it wasn't just killing her mother, who was no longer human by the way, but his willingness to leave her an orphan
As usual Harry felt guilty for the wrong reasons. Susan sacrificed herself for Maggie and he should honor her for it. And Susan was still human enough to sacrifice herself.
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