Mab chose Molly

[Arjan]

Indeed, especially when a girl's hymen can be broken in very innocent ways, like a hard fall on her butt for example.  The girl is merely a victim of the beliefs of her family and the societal cultural/religious ones around her.  You and I might call it arcane ignorance, but it's a traditional viewpoint that is very hard to reverse.

But to go back to the Dresden files, this is the context of all the old stories about virginity. It can be highly idealised beyond recognition but scratch it a bit and it is there. I don’t think we should idealise and sugarcoat it. It is a denial of history.

[Mira]

But to go back to the Dresden files, this is the context of all the old stories about virginity. It can be highly idealised beyond recognition but scratch it a bit and it is there. I don’t think we should idealise and sugarcoat it. It is a denial of history.

And I think that Jim is playing it that way as well, it is the tragedy of Maeve in a lot of ways, and may become one for Molly as well.

[bigdangmoose]

You know, not to put a complete stop to the conversation, but I thought this whole debate was put to bed awhile ago.

The virginity aspect was a worthless argument because Sarrisa is a Lady now and she went out and lived a life, trying to be anything that she wanted to be. She knew of the chastity that the Lady has to endure. And if she knew that, she probably got busy with someone somewhere down the line. And, from Jim's own mouth, we know that Sarrisa and Fix are in a relationship. That woman in Fix's bed back in PG wasn't Lily.

As for Mab's intrest in Molly, Jim said that Mab didn't know anything about her until PG, when Fetch Prime brought her to Arctis Tor. The whole thing about Lea asking for Michael's first born in GP must mean that Lea knew about Molly so Mab must know about her is wrong. Mab learned about Molly in PG; saw who she was, who her parentage was, and what Harry would do for her. And with that knowledge, got a leverage on Harry.

And as for the fae blood, I can't say that she 100% doesn't have any. But, with the theory that Priscilla has, that being that Molly got a face full of wellspring magic in PG, or the fact that Molly completely shut herself down and away from everyone after Changes and Lea was the one to keep her alive, train her, teach her how to think about the world, that would change her at her core and open herself up to the mantle. Those points make more sense then trying to say/prove that Molly has Fae blood somewhere in her past.

Finally, Mab never said what she had planned for Molly. People have always assumed it was to be the Summer Lady, but she never said anything to that being the outcome. The only thing that makes it a possibility is that Mab said she thought Molly was more suited for Summer. But I have always believed that Mab had even more plans. I think she was going to use Molly as a pressure point/a bargaining chip against Harry. I also think she was going to use Molly as a weapon against HHWBs. Molly is a strong mind mage, one of the strongest we have seen, especially for her age. With the Council banning anything to deal with the mind, Molly's talent would go to waste. But under Mab's tutelage, maybe she could detect/fight the Walker's. That's been my theory. Mab isn't one to have one backup plan, so just to be a Lady doesn't fit with me.

[Arjan]

That same word of Jim about Fix and Molly tells us that they kept their relation well within the boundaries so the mantle would not take action.

[The_Sibelis]

That same word of Jim about Fix and Molly tells us that they kept their relation well within the boundaries so the mantle would not take action.

indeed it specifically mentioned Fix having a chaste relationship with her. And as mentioned above, sarissa made a deal with mab, mab obviously wanted sarissa for a possible lady role, so of course she'd have a clause to make sure she'd remain a viable option.

[morriswalters]

There is no story reason why Sarissa need be a 300 year old virgin. I've not liked the  weird chastity belt Jim made Molly wear either.  It makes her sex a weapon. Slate raped both Lily and Sarissa, or at least Jim leads you to believe, since Harry has shown that if the Mantle had control he would. By any mainstream definition that means that neither were virgins as defined by the dictionary.

[The_Sibelis]

By any mainstream definition that means that neither were virgins as defined by the dictionary.

likely your mainstream definition doesn't mean jack then huh mate? Which is rather what dictionaries are, the current incarnation of a word. However virginity didn't classically have anything to do with the hymn, it was a matter of innocence, purity. In the old days they'd have a statue take the first blood, or even, pay another man to deflower your wife. And that wasn't seen as taking of virginity actually.
It's really funny though, so entrenched into your own ideas you point out multiple cases in the book now and insist they themselves must be flawed and not your perception of virginity. 1 no intercourse and two victims all qualify for a virginal role. Perhaps there's a very simple answer to that eh?

[morriswalters]

Since Jim, I and I assume you all share a common lexicon it means quite a bit.  Without that commonality it would make him unreadable, since words after all are agreements among people with shared lexicons.

[Arjan]

What the word means now for most people and what it meant in the past in the cultures where the concept was important is not open to any doubt.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VirginityTropes

Usually Wikipedia is quite reliable and you can find the attitudes of several cultures to this concept:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginity



Of course it is quite possible that the mantle will make you a virgin, it is magical after after all. What is shown in the short story, in Lilly’s rant in the books and in Maeves behavior and complains is that the mantle forces you to behave like one and to keep it. Being a virgin is part of the story and so part of the power.

I think that because the concept has been so idealized in stories people want to rob it from its negative connotations but that is burying your head in the sand or it might be a conscious attempt to change the meaning of the word and make the concept harmless. At the moment it is not.

[Mira]

likely your mainstream definition doesn't mean jack then huh mate? Which is rather what dictionaries are, the current incarnation of a word. However virginity didn't classically have anything to do with the hymn, it was a matter of innocence, purity. In the old days they'd have a statue take the first blood, or even, pay another man to deflower your wife. And that wasn't seen as taking of virginity actually.
It's really funny though, so entrenched into your own ideas you point out multiple cases in the book now and insist they themselves must be flawed and not your perception of virginity. 1 no intercourse and two victims all qualify for a virginal role. Perhaps there's a very simple answer to that eh?

Sadly while I agree with you on the purity definition of a virgin, many cultures still rely on physical evidence.  The extreme is a girl or young woman is raped, and she is killed by her family,because she was raped, it is called an honor killing.  I think you could say what Carlos suffered at the hands of the Winter Lady Mantle is an example of the physical celibacy as a vital component to what she is.  Molly didn't chose to attack Carlos, on the contrary, she seemed as eager to have sex as he was.  Sex and the hormones and impulses that control it seem to be very much part of the Fae Mantles, at least in the case of the Winter Court.  The Winter Knight Mantle wants to rape and dominate everything that moves, while the Winter Lady Mantle goes in more for the virgin high priestess modal.

[The_Sibelis]

Sadly while I agree with you on the purity definition of a virgin, many cultures still rely on physical evidence.

relied, not rely.(it's not current, not in the age of masterbation and sex toys) could you give me a specific example and not a Salem witch hunt environment? Cause I could say we Americans have a rich culture of witch burning and what not, but that doesn't cover a handful of crazies in isolated incidents. Saying it's a cultural thing is greatly exaggerated. Even in India the rape capital of the world, and the middle east, the family has a tendency to cut off the offenders member and stuff it down their throat proper style.
 But it's not the origins of it no, it's the we're going to control you and how you behave and are viewed misogyny that gives rapist that entitled mindset.(a cursor look at panati's origins of all things would save me quite the hassle here quite frankly)
More importantly this conversation has strayed from anything in the books when I don't even particular wish to discuss it in the first place. 👿 Farther replies should be confined to context on how they relate to what's in the books, specifically. Or I can just tell everyone to go &+$# themselves as I'm very close to doing at this point.

[Arjan]

It is well documented in the present and in the past and the past is what we are interested in here. There are court ordered virginity tests in Iraq, google it.

The whole virginity thing is a misogynistic patriarchal tool to control young women and their sexuality so they can be traded with other families. Part of it is the fear of men, they have all the resources and they don’t want to spend them on other men’s children.

Because it is so old and ingrained in culture it is the stuff of myth and legend and because it is inevitable and everywhere it is reinterpreted, sanitized and dusted off but it is toxic.

The morals of old tales are not the morals of our time and place but it is not far away at all.

[Mira]

It is well documented in the present and in the past and the past is what we are interested in here. There are court ordered virginity tests in Iraq, google it.

The whole virginity thing is a misogynistic patriarchal tool to control young women and their sexuality so they can be traded with other families. Part of it is the fear of men, they have all the resources and they don’t want to spend them on other men’s children.

Because it is so old and ingrained in culture it is the stuff of myth and legend and because it is inevitable and everywhere it is reinterpreted, sanitized and dusted off but it is toxic.

The morals of old tales are not the morals of our time and place but it is not far away at all.

Yes, and one can Google "honor killings" they still happen.. Officially the law may now be against it, but the cultural element in families still runs very deep, and yes, the law often looks the other way.  There is a real reason why women get their hymen sewed back together, it isn't because she enjoys the pain on her wedding night. Simply put, no hymen, ergo not a virgin, her family, her husband's family all dishonored, least could happen to her is to become an outcast, the worst, she could die for
it.. And yes, as Arjan points out, it is still happening today, not as often perhaps, but in some cultures it does.

Molly's Mantle reacted violently to Carlos because her physical virginity was being compromised.  Now eventually she might find a way around that or to control that as Harry did the sexual urges of the Winter Knight's Mantle, but at the time she was too new, and it sounds from the story that that was one aspect of being Winter Lady that Mab neglected to explain to her.  Who knows what Mab's motives were, maybe thinking the best way to learn is the hard way... Or maybe she thought that Molly and Harry were already lovers and a little rough sex wouldn't really hurt either of them.. Or the Fae Courts are really old school as far as virginity goes.  Forget Molly for a moment, one of the things that really affected Maeve's mental health and gave Nemesis an opening was her sexual frustration. That is why she surrounded herself with the likes of Ginny Greenteeth, even Slate, she became a voyeur, if she could not have sex herself, she'd live it through others, and it got more twisted as the centuries rolled on. 

Foreshadowing of all of this happened at the end of Proven Guilty, the famous scene where Harry dumped a bucket of ice water over Molly's head and told her on no on certain terms that as long as she was his apprentice, no sex.  At the time we all thought it was a rather mean way to keep their relationship professional, but now we know that act made her suitable to become Winter Lady. Just another thorn in Harry's hide, the consequences of doing what he thought was right at the time, backfiring. 

Oh and one more thing, there is a sexual  double standard in the Winter Court, while the Winter Lady is supposed to remain a virgin, her mantle reacts violently to a sexual encounter.. The Winter Knight sees women as an object to dominate, thus the violent almost overpowering urge to rape.. One more little point, sexually frustrated Maeve chose Slate to be the Winter Knight, if I remember correctly he was a rapist as well as a drug addict before he became Knight.  No doubt Maeve got her jollies watching him sexually assault the female members of her Court in the Underground of Chicago.

[Mr. Mouse]

Molly's Mantle reacted violently to Carlos because her physical virginity was being compromised.  Now eventually she might find a way around that or to control that as Harry did the sexual urges of the Winter Knight's Mantle, but at the time she was too new, and it sounds from the story that that was one aspect of being Winter Lady that Mab neglected to explain to her.  Who knows what Mab's motives were, maybe thinking the best way to learn is the hard way...

Much like the way the Raiths don't tell Inari (or Barrowills Carol) about the Hunger that will kill their first sexual partner initiating them into full White Court vampirism.

Oh and one more thing, there is a sexual  double standard in the Winter Court, while the Winter Lady is supposed to remain a virgin, her mantle reacts violently to a sexual encounter.. The Winter Knight sees women as an object to dominate, thus the violent almost overpowering urge to rape.

The Winter Lady's mantle amps up her libido as much as the Winter Knight's thereby making the double standard starker.

[Mr. Mouse]

I have trouble making sense of the exchanges between Sarissa and Harry early in CD when she admits that Mab is making her available as a sexual partner for Harry if virginity is required to be a Lady. Yes, Harry says there'd be an element of coercion involved in any sex they had since Mab put them in this position (as she is also trying to do with Harry and Lara at the end of BG). Also, Mab is clearly trying to establish an emotional bond between Harry and Sarissa. If that bond is established and they're sexually active then at some point one would have to imagine her Free Will would override Mab's putting them together. Unless Cat Sith would have appeared at that most delicate moment and figuratively poured ice water over the pair.