Author Topic: Re-reading and this jumped out at me  (Read 8998 times)

Offline LostInTime

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Re-reading and this jumped out at me
« on: September 22, 2021, 01:39:13 AM »
At the end of BG, Harry goes with Molly to the Carpenter's house for Sunday dinner. When Michael drops the bomb that he knows she's the Winter Lady, he then expands on the preparation they've done to get ready for Molly to come over. They've broken out her Grandmother's silverware.

In Fool Moon, Bob is explaining about different kinds of werewolves. Loup Garou are cursed to be consumed by a wild spirit. But it's not a run of the mill curse. You've got to be really powerful. A major sorcerer, a demon lord or a faerie queen. And, the only way to stop them is with inherited silver.

Do we know a faerie queen with inherited silver? Why, yes. Yes we do.
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Offline Second Aristh

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Re: Re-reading and this jumped out at me
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2021, 04:29:04 AM »
Yeah, possibly a nice clue hiding in plain sight.

There have been theories that the loup garou might come back in some form (fitz from GS I think? As a bastard son of the first one). Part of the theory was trying to figure out how FM fits into the Circle’s plans and the idea of Fenrir since Odin is a big player in the story.
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Offline Con

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Re: Re-reading and this jumped out at me
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2021, 04:40:55 AM »
Nice Catch.

I'm rereading Fool Moon now. Murphy uses her Aunt's Earrings.

Offline Mira

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Re: Re-reading and this jumped out at me
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2021, 10:54:34 AM »


  Or it is just a coincidence, when my son and his family come home, especially for a holiday, I break out the family silver as well that I inherited from my mother.  But if a Loop got past the angelic guard, I can see Charity stabbing him with a butter knife... ;)

Offline LostInTime

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Re: Re-reading and this jumped out at me
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2021, 02:20:17 PM »
If one of the Carpenters is going to go mano-a-loupo with a Loup Garou, you know it's going to be Michael. Which would be horrible if that's how Michael goes to his reward.

The silverware was broken out because Molly, as a fae, cannot touch any alloy of iron. So, stainless steel flatware would burn her.

But, what if someone levelled a curse at Molly? As a faerie queen she's got the horsepower to make the curse work.

Bob could be wrong, but this seems like it was a seed laid back in FM and the building hint was dropped in BG. Or it's just a coincidence.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Re-reading and this jumped out at me
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2021, 02:39:30 PM »
If one of the Carpenters is going to go mano-a-loupo with a Loup Garou, you know it's going to be Michael. Which would be horrible if that's how Michael goes to his reward.

The silverware was broken out because Molly, as a fae, cannot touch any alloy of iron. So, stainless steel flatware would burn her.

But, what if someone levelled a curse at Molly? As a faerie queen she's got the horsepower to make the curse work.

Bob could be wrong, but this seems like it was a seed laid back in FM and the building hint was dropped in BG. Or it's just a coincidence.

Yeah, I'd be shocked if it happened to Michael.. If I remember correctly it was a curse leveled specifically at the first born of the family MacFinn.  Now that isn't to say that someone doesn't hate Michael enough to level that kind of curse, but I don't think it is all that easy to do.  I never thought about stainless flatware and Molly, but that makes sense.. Wonder if she is okay if it is only silver plated flatware?  I think it is because stainless could hurt Molly, and they wanted to make her feel extra welcome by busting out the good china etc.

Offline LostInTime

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Re: Re-reading and this jumped out at me
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2021, 01:34:10 AM »
No. Molly is the firstborn.
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Offline Kindler

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Re: Re-reading and this jumped out at me
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2021, 02:13:49 PM »
The specifics of the Loup Garou curse on MacFinn were (as I recall):
1. Placed by a Saint (which has meaning in the DF according to Jim; apparently it's something like the wizard equivalent for faith-based magic).
2. Affected the firstborn of the MacFinn line.
3. Ensured that the MacFinn lineage would never die out until the End of Days.
Tera West all but stated that she was pregnant, and I recall a Word of Jim entry that stated Tera would return by the end. I think he'd originally said that she would return for Ghost Story, but more recently said she would be back for the BAT instead.
Personally, I think in Ghost Story she might have been originally intended to run a different gang of street kids in opposition to Zero (and to protect them from the Fomor encroachment), but the book was a bit long to begin with. Probably better for her to have been cut.
Anyway, yeah, there's definitely going to be another Loup somewhere down the line. Really good catch that I completely missed!

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

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Re: Re-reading and this jumped out at me
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2021, 04:53:58 AM »
The implication is that the inherited silver has to be used by the person who inherited it.

It is Molly Grandmothers silver, and she has two grandmothers (three counting Mother Winter). It could therefore be either Michael or Charity who would be called upon to issue the coupe de grace to the loupe garou. Michael is hors de combat, but Charity isn’t,  is a formidable warrior and an armourer capable of turning the silverware into a variety of weapons.

My moneys on Charity in defence of a daughter.

Having been cursed by a saint, would a loupe garou be immune to the protection of the Carpenter Household? He may be powered by the same sort of power as the Angels. Perfect weapon for Nicodemus to aim at Michael and his family, it would rip right through the Fae, pass the threshold and angels no problem, and amuse him immensely using one tool of the White God to kill another.




Offline Mira

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Re: Re-reading and this jumped out at me
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2021, 03:00:30 PM »


Thing is, at this point given his history and service to the Almighty, I cannot see anyone who is a "saint" slapping that kind of curse on Michael.  And even if one tried, I think the Almighty would veto it.  No, in this case the silver came out because as mentioned, stainless steel would be painful if not fatal to their daughter.  Also for Sunday dinner with honored guests one breaks out the family best china and silver, which these days is inherited for the most part. Gone are the days when newly married couples get sets of sterling and fancy china as wedding gifts.. Yeah, it happens, but mostly it is inherited, that is how I got mine anyway.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Re-reading and this jumped out at me
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2021, 02:20:00 PM »
It's worth noting that Chauncy described the MacFinn curse as "said to have been laid by a saint", not "was laid by a saint". He can provide incorrect rumor implied as fact, the same way propaganda actors use "a lot of people are saying" to imply there must be some fire behind the smoke.

But cursing an entire bloodline of people to become ravening homicidal monsters with no choice but to kill seems pretty far from saintly. Aside from the trail of destruction, it's also tampering with the MacFinns' free will. A sufficient power could do it, but could they do it and still be on the right side of the Almighty's graces?

Could even be the Fallen were behind that and framed a saint for PR against the Christianization of Ireland, and Chauncy is repeating their lie as a "said to be".

Offline Mira

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Re: Re-reading and this jumped out at me
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2021, 03:21:42 PM »
It's worth noting that Chauncy described the MacFinn curse as "said to have been laid by a saint", not "was laid by a saint". He can provide incorrect rumor implied as fact, the same way propaganda actors use "a lot of people are saying" to imply there must be some fire behind the smoke.

But cursing an entire bloodline of people to become ravening homicidal monsters with no choice but to kill seems pretty far from saintly. Aside from the trail of destruction, it's also tampering with the MacFinns' free will. A sufficient power could do it, but could they do it and still be on the right side of the Almighty's graces?

Could even be the Fallen were behind that and framed a saint for PR against the Christianization of Ireland, and Chauncy is repeating their lie as a "said to be".

Yup, one of the worst kind of lies, because it is so hard to refute rumors, as long as there are ears to hear them, someone will believe them.

Offline LostInTime

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Re: Re-reading and this jumped out at me
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2021, 05:24:16 PM »

Thing is, at this point given his history and service to the Almighty, I cannot see anyone who is a "saint" slapping that kind of curse on Michael.  And even if one tried, I think the Almighty would veto it.  No, in this case the silver came out because as mentioned, stainless steel would be painful if not fatal to their daughter.  Also for Sunday dinner with honored guests one breaks out the family best china and silver, which these days is inherited for the most part. Gone are the days when newly married couples get sets of sterling and fancy china as wedding gifts.. Yeah, it happens, but mostly it is inherited, that is how I got mine anyway.
Nope. Free will trumps celestial power. If a human saint chose to lay that sort of curse, there would be a price to pay. But nobody can stand in the way of free will.
And the curse could be laid by a saint, a demon lord or a fae queen.
Jim said Tera West would be back by or for the BAT. So, expect the inherited silver to come out then, too. Since MacFinn's curse is a bloodline curse. MacFinn could have made puppies with Tera West or left kids behind in Vietnam.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Re-reading and this jumped out at me
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2021, 07:47:05 PM »
Quote
Nope. Free will trumps celestial power. If a human saint chose to lay that sort of curse, there would be a price to pay. But nobody can stand in the way of free will.

No, but while a saint, again a stretch, but if a saint chose to put a curse on Michael.  He or she could do that of his or her own free will.  However that doesn't prevent the Almighty from removing it or curing Michael of it.  He'd be removing the curse, that in no way interferes with the saint's free will to put it on in the first place.

Offline Morenath

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Re: Re-reading and this jumped out at me
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2021, 02:27:50 AM »
The specifics of the Loup Garou curse on MacFinn were (as I recall):
1. Placed by a Saint (which has meaning in the DF according to Jim; apparently it's something like the wizard equivalent for faith-based magic).
2. Affected the firstborn of the MacFinn line.
3. Ensured that the MacFinn lineage would never die out until the End of Days.
Tera West all but stated that she was pregnant,

The curse was that his lineage would never die out until the end of days.
The curse was broken, so the curse isn't still applicable.

If anything, it's probably a thread that will be brought back again when Harry is dropping the Winter Knight mantle.  Jim likes his callbacks and shining different lights on the same situation to bring out different aspects.