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[Second Aristh]

My issue isn't so much with the fact that they lost; it's that we finally get to see Harry's war buddies fight, and they get wiped. They've got a reputation for being survivors, tough customers, veterans of a bloody and brutal protracted conflict (and then a second one, against the Fomor). I would've liked to have seen them win a fight or three before this encounter, to justify the reputation Harry gives them. It's not quite the Worf Effect, because you at least saw Worf kick plenty of keisters before he started getting his own kicked in return, but it left a similar taste in my mouth.

They get some nice time like that in one of the comics.  War Cry, I think?  The problem is that there are only so many pages you can fit in before the BAT.  Maybe a short story from Ramirez's perspective could be done.  It would be neat to have him dealing with losing them while doing flashbacks to some time they worked well together without Harry.

They knew they were about to go into battle one way or another when they came across Mavra, Drakul and company, if they are good warriors, and Wardens supposedly are, then they should have been ready.

Meh, dealing with blampires necessitates specialized prep more than most fights.  That crew was expecting wizard necromancers, not blampires.  Not even usual blampires like Harry fought on Thomas's birthday, elder blampires.

In the end, they do seem to have taken out two of them on their own.  Only Mavra, tentacle guy, and the twins are mentioned of the original Drakul + Mavra + four elder blampires. = 7 figures.
I don't think they had as bad a showing for their fight as people are saying.  Just a lot of it was off page.

But he also had Murphy at his back, the two of them have squared off against enemies with much tougher odds and still won.

Two on four where your mortal is in bad physical shape is not a good combination, even if you stipulate that they've lucked out of tougher odds before.  That wasn't a fight that Harry and Murphy could have won without extreme luck and severe injury to themselves or their friends.

Maybe not full rouge, but at the same time he could have held back just enough not to be of help against Harry.

Meh, Chandler strikes me as more aligned with WC ideals than Ramirez, and he was not going to side with Harry against the others or stay neutral.  I don't think Chandler dislikes Harry at all, but Harry is not going to be in the first few items on his priority list of loyalties.

Huh?  I don't remember Harry being "for" Drakul..  Harry fared better because when he sneezed huge iron anvils fell out of the sky..  Then again as Listens to Wind said, if you fight these kinds of creatures to a draw, it is a win..

Yep, it was around when they showed Bill's and Yoshimo's bodies.  Harry was intentionally spared, and Carlos was next on the chopping block. 

The other twin pointed at me. “Give it to my sister. She must restore herself.”

“His blood is not for the likes of you or me,” Mavra replied calmly. “Starborn are for the Master.”

[BrainFireBob]

It's interesting to me that people seem to forget that a lot of Mab's "physical therapy" was about sharpening his magical skills in Cold Days. Harry's much better, faster, and more efficient at casting than he was before, in addition to being pushed to a physical peak it appears he's bothering to maintain having achieved.

I rather suspect that this is all relevant to Mirror, Mirror- native Harry is a bit lazy, reliant on his natural brawn- physical and magical- over precision. Main timeline Harry was forced to go without crutches, develop his magical skills, and achieve the latent physical potential due to the pain suppression of the Knight Mantle.

I rather suspect Harry will find himself summoned into something like a waterfall that he just Hulks his way out of, to the total surprise of alt-Harry. Or uses his new ice powers for same- force the water into ice against his body, now he's no longer in running water.

[Mira]

Yep, it was around when they showed Bill's and Yoshimo's bodies.  Harry was intentionally spared, and Carlos was next on the chopping bloc

Mavra says a lot of things, that doesn't mean it will go her way.   It still was a draw, and as Listens to Wind says, that's a win..

[Ed0517]

  Yeah, he is Joe Louis, but he isn't an aging out of shape Joe Louis that takes his skills for granted, he cannot afford to.. Joe Louis got knocked out, Harry could be dead.

I said he was young - at the time of the first Schmeling fight, Joe Louis was 22 and had yet to fight for the title. Crude and strong - like Harry.  Couple of tips away from being a dominator.

[groinkick]

Mavra says a lot of things, that doesn't mean it will go her way.   It still was a draw, and as Listens to Wind says, that's a win..

She literally had Dresden in a position he couldn't get out.  She could have ripped his head from his body.  Harry's inner dialogue was that he was powerless.  Dresden was caught off guard by her, but because of the Black Court's incredible speed, it's likely that the others were caught off guard.

I think that 1 vs 1 Harry, or the others could have probably handled any one of the Black Court vamps there but it was a group of vamps moving at super speed. 

[Mira]

She literally had Dresden in a position he couldn't get out.  She could have ripped his head from his body.  Harry's inner dialogue was that he was powerless.  Dresden was caught off guard by her, but because of the Black Court's incredible speed, it's likely that the others were caught off guard.

I think that 1 vs 1 Harry, or the others could have probably handled any one of the Black Court vamps there but it was a group of vamps moving at super speed.

But they handled them, Harry, Carlos, Listens to Wind, and River Shoulders lived to fight another day, as Listen says, that's a win..   Mavra could have done this or that, but she didn't succeed.

[Ed0517]

We could try to make a list of wizards who would probably win a fight against Dresden on neutral territory and both fresh and perhaps one with wizards where it would be roughly equal and one with those that would probably loose. To get 8t started I think:

Probably win
The Merlin
Eb
Listens to wind
Rashid
Molly

Roughly equal
Cowl
Kumori
Marcone

Probably loose
Carlos
Chandler

Arguably, Molly doesn't count - she isn't Council anymore, I think, since becoming Winter Lady. Non-winter Molly loses.

Cowl takes Harry, easily.

I don't think we saw enough of Kumori to be sure, but I tend to lean Harry,

[Mira]

Cowl takes Harry, easily.

Really?  That hasn't happened in spite of the so called advantage Cowl supposedly has, as in age and experience.

[Second Aristh]

Really?  That hasn't happened in spite of the so called advantage Cowl supposedly has, as in age and experience.

There have only been like three chances total?  One in DB when they met and Cowl was playing with Harry (I don't count the end there because Harry sucker punched him when he was managing the Darkhallow).  One in WN when Cowl zapped him through Little Chicago and busted it.  Then again in the Raith Deeps when he let in the uber-ghouls and the pteradactyl before leaving altogether and not really fighting Harry. 

Cowl has shown Senior Council level of power and control (possibly because he's Simon, a former Senior Council member).  I think he takes down Harry in a fair fight, but with the winter knight's mantle it could be closer.  Kinda like the Harry/Eb fight.

[Mira]

There have only been like three chances total?  One in DB when they met and Cowl was playing with Harry (I don't count the end there because Harry sucker punched him when he was managing the Darkhallow).  One in WN when Cowl zapped him through Little Chicago and busted it.  Then again in the Raith Deeps when he let in the uber-ghouls and the pteradactyl before leaving altogether and not really fighting Harry. 

Cowl has shown Senior Council level of power and control (possibly because he's Simon, a former Senior Council member).  I think he takes down Harry in a fair fight, but with the winter knight's mantle it could be closer.  Kinda like the Harry/Eb fight.

Yet, those times you mention, compared to Cowl, Harry is very young and inexperienced without
the aid of a mantle of any kind, further though the shadow of Lasciel was in his head for part of the time, she didn't enhance his power or magic.  Still he held his own, I disagree that Cowl was simply toying with him in their first meeting, Harry has grown since they last met in knowlege, mantel, and experience.

[Second Aristh]

Yet, those times you mention, compared to Cowl, Harry is very young and inexperienced without
the aid of a mantle of any kind, further though the shadow of Lasciel was in his head for part of the time, she didn't enhance his power or magic.  Still he held his own, I disagree that Cowl was simply toying with him in their first meeting, Harry has grown since they last met in knowlege, mantel, and experience.

Cowl was definitely going easy on Harry in their first meeting.

"Just as well," Cowl murmured. "I have wanted to see for myself what has the Wardens so nervous about you."
The cold wind rose again, and the hairs on the back of my neck rose up stiffly. A flash of sensation flickered over me as Cowl drew in power. A lot of power.

...

I've traded practice blows with my old master Justin DuMorne, himself at one time a Warden. I fought him in earnest, too, and won. I've tested my strength in practice duels against the mentor who succeeded him, Ebenezar McCoy. My faerie godmother, the Leanansidhe, has a seriously nasty right hook, metaphysically speaking, and I've even gone up against the least of the Queens of Faerie. Throw in a couple of demons, various magical constructs, a thirteen-story fall in a runaway elevator, half a dozen spellslingers of one amount of nasty or another, and I've seen more sheer mystic violence than most wizards in the business. I've beaten them all, or at least survived them, and I've got the scars to show for it.

Cowl hit me harder than any of them.

...

Cowl walked slowly toward me down the sidewalk, all cloak and hood and shadows. "Disappointing," he said. "I hoped you were ready for the heavyweight division."

...

Cowl kept walking toward me. Hell's bells, it didn't even look like he was trying all that hard.

I got a cold feeling in my chest.

Harry has grown since DB, but not enough to make a match of Cowl yet.

[groinkick]

But they handled them, Harry, Carlos, Listens to Wind, and River Shoulders lived to fight another day, as Listen says, that's a win..   Mavra could have done this or that, but she didn't succeed.

They didn't handle them.  Toot and the little folk showed up, and started attacking with garlic.  If not for them, Harry and the others would have been killed.

[Mira]

They didn't handle them.  Toot and the little folk showed up, and started attacking with garlic.  If not for them, Harry and the others would have been killed.

But that is part of it, isn't it?  Winning is a team effort, Harry has that kind of loyalty, Mavra never will.

[Con]

I'd put Cowl Senior Council level as well.

Mavra was the drummer so weakest of Drakuls entourage.

[Mira]

I'd put Cowl Senior Council level as well.

Mavra was the drummer so weakest of Drakuls entourage.

  But in the end it isn't about one on one..  It is about leadership,  it is about those who will follow that lead.   That's what really scares the Senior Council, yeah, anyone one of them one on one is stronger than Harry and most likely could take him, but it isn't about that.  When the flying squid thingies were raising havoc when the battle begun, there were Senior Council members present, for all their personal power and knowledge they couldn't do squat in an effective manner to stop them.  Enter Harry, a word to his loyal Za'Gard, and they took them.. Same against Mavra and Drakul, yeah, one on one, they were screwed, three Wardens, killed or dispatched to another dimension.. But while it was bad, they didn't win, not because one of the wizards or the sash-quash was badder than the rest, but because of Harry's loyal little army, following orders to go and get the garlic..