White Council Top Members

[Mira]

I mean if he had Blackstaff he could have straight up killed him, but yeah it was more than a friendly sparring match. Harry held his own is the point, puts his combat abilities in the top 10.

Eb didn't need the Blackstaff to defeat Harry, his arsenal of skills honed over three hundred years or more were enough for that.  No, I think Eb was trying to pull his punches some, this is he grandson after all.  However he needed to stop him, and Harry is powerful no argument there.  Powerful enough that when he wouldn't give up it triggered the fail safe that killed his double.

[groinkick]

My opinion is that there are levels of wizards.  The top tier wizards are the Senior Council members.  So less than ten.  These wizards are the best, and most powerful, and have access to secret power that the lower tiers don't have.  They are head and shoulders above the next tier.  I see Dresden as being in the top few wizards of the 2nd tier.  He's head and shoulders above the third tier.

So it's like top tier has maybe 10 wizards (if that)
Second tier has like 50 wizards.  I see Harry as in the top of this tier, and able to reach the next tier eventually. (If you minus Demonreach and Winter Knight Mantle)
Third tier is like 16 year old Harry Dresden.  Powerful, capable, but can't stand with the big kids.
Fourth tier is where the bulk of the wizard population is.

I'm just spit balling here

[Con]

We don't actually have any personal examples of White Council Wizards outside of combat.

Ancient Mai is supposed to be less combat oriented, but seemed confident enough in Turn Coat and is a Senior Council member.

Similarly Martha Liberty, she has some empathic spirit magic.

Listens to Winds is an outright badass despite being a healer.

Rashid regularly fights at the Outer Gates and has some elements of foresight.

Klaus the Toymaker- WOJ is he beat a bunch of Nazi sorcerers with a wind up duck.

Langtry stopped the entire Red Court with one ward.

[Ed0517]

Ramirez was in charge and got to pick the security detail, so he went with wardens he was comfortable working with and that were good in a fight.  It's why he approached Harry in PT to join the security detail.

The event was in the US. A US regional commander is the logical choice to head security. Harry is one, but he also has ties with one of the other parties, could be a conflict. Plus, Harry is not really an organizer here...

We also know that Chandler is a very trusted warden by WoJ.  He's one of the few that gets solo guard duty for Edinburgh.  He's also allowed to pursue his time magic specialty, even though it skirts one of the Laws.

Chandler is mentioned as always being around the Seniors. He's why I said "for the most part" He works security at the Ways too. His role with the SC is not exactly defined, but he could be a bodyguard.  He didn't go to Demonreach, but maybe he usually works with Martha - she was in Chicago, but not Demonreach.

In the end, I think its pretty safe to say that Harry is in the top 15 most dangerous wizards after BG.  He's got plenty of raw power for a wizard.  He's (painstakingly) slowly improving his control and efficiency with magic.  He's got a long list of powerful entities where he has a strong working relationship.  He has a fallback position where he's nearly invincible in Demonreach.  Plus, he has the Winter Knight's mantle to draw upon and to guard his physical flank.

i don't think we know enough of the other wizards to rank him this high. If he has 30 older wizards with more raw power - and more experience - at least a few are going to be combat-oriented, and ahead of him.  Where, for example, is Klaus the Toymaker? They went thru several other names before they got to Eb when he took the seat too.

In a fair fight (not that those actually exist in this series), Harry is definitely a big-ish fish in the WC.

big-ish? Sure. But if there are a couple thousand wizards, 50 is pretty big-ish too.

[Ed0517]

I'm going to be a bit contrarian here.  I don't think Harry is actually that good at magical combat.  I'll bet that he's maybe top 50 in the council, which considering their casualties over the past ten years is not as great as it seems. 

To use a combat sport analogy to explain, I'd say that Harry is a good puncher, but not a good boxer.  Like a lot of very hard hitters, it's a crutch for him and he leans on it way too much.  His duel with Hannah Asher was quite ironic, given that he was essentially fighting himself from only a few years prior.   

We've seen several examples of far less -- let's use the word energetic, rather than powerful -- practitioners demonstrate that they could be more than a match for Harry. 

It's actually a good thing for the narrative that he is so bad.  Given the potential power he wields, if he were also very skilled, it would lower the stakes.

I agree. In fact, I'll give an example IN a combat sport. 

A wise veteran fighter, as it happens, an ex-champ himself, faces an up-and-comer.  Max Schmeling watches film, one of the first athletes to break down film, and when asked why, Max supposedly says "I think I see something."

His opponent is a young Joe Louis. Fast, strong, can hit. Joe Louis is Harry. Joe didn't have good management, was very rough on his skills, getting by on physical gifts.

They meet, and the supposedly over the hill Max knocks Joe out in the 12th.

2 years later, the rematch. Joe's team has been replaced, his new trainer is not an idiot. Joe's skills have been polished somewhat, he is not as crude. Joe knocks out Max in the first.

Max is a better trained wizard. Maybe even Carlos. not as much power, but uses what he has well. Well schooled, well trained. Skills gets him a narrow decision over raw power.

Harry is Joe. raw power carried him far, until he reached a level it was not enough. But Joe took a step back, and honed his craft. Got better teaching. With even somewhat close skills, his gifts would let him dominate a rematch.

Carlos might be close to Harry now in a fight, skills vs. strength, but with a little work, Harry crushes him.

(in case you care, early in his career Joe dropped his left after a jab - a common amateurish mistake. It invited the right cross as a counter. Max had a good one.  After the loss to Schmeling they fixed this flaw. Louis then became one of the most dominant heavyweight champs.) 

[Mira]

  However, Harry has been training, he isn't the same wizard he was pre-Proven Guilty.  To teach Molly he has had to buckle down and teach himself as well, everything from his Latin to his abilty to make veils is vastly improved.  Because of his run in with Corpse Taker, he and Molly sparred mentally beyond the ineffective method that the White Council allows, and it proved critical.  He's improved his shields, he also has a new staff that he carved on Demonreach..   He has trained hard physically because it helps him to mentally control the Winter Knight's Mantle.  It enhances his many skills and allows him to use ice magic... Yeah, he is Joe Louis, but he isn't an aging out of shape Joe Louis that takes his skills for granted, he cannot afford to.. Joe Louis got knocked out, Harry could be dead.

[toodeep]

Rough thought.  Back when Harry said he was in the top 40 for strength, but as we've seen, strength counts for only so much Luccio said she was weaker than Harry back in her old body, but she was head of the Warders and I feel very certain could have taken Harry.  So, lets give it a x3 multiplier for skill and say Harry used to be top 120 wizards in a fight.

Since then we've seen Harry significantly increase in skill and add power through deals (winter knight, soulfire).  We know from WoJ that most older, and certainly all the senior council have a tendency to do the same (gain secret sources of power), so that might skew Harry's estimate because in his youth he probably wasn't accounting for all the deals these guys had going for them outside of natural strength.

Lets say the pool was actually 50% bigger because Harry didn't account for deals, but Harry has increased his strength to top 30 and skill modifier is now only x2.  30x1.5x2= top 90. Now say at least 10 of these died in the war and you put Harry in the top 30-45 most powerful still, and in the top 80 most dangerous.  It might be less than that if you are talking about in a straight up fight though, since Harry specializes in brawling.  Within that, obviously, it depends the kind of fight (if it is close enough to get physical I think Harry goes into top 20), terrain, ability to plan, etc.  But if Harry had gone into the meeting with the Vampire in Edinburgh, I bet there were at least 30 people present who could have shut him down.

[TrueMonk]

We could try to make a list of wizards who would probably win a fight against Dresden on neutral territory and both fresh and perhaps one with wizards where it would be roughly equal and one with those that would probably loose. To get 8t started I think:

Probably win
The Merlin
Eb
Listens to wind
Rashid
Molly

Roughly equal
Cowl
Kumori
Marcone

Probably loose
Carlos
Chandler

[Kindler]

If Carlos, Bill, Yoshimo and Chandler were all considered Elite Wardens enough to be the Senior Councils bodyguards, and Harry outranks them all that alone puts him in the top 10.

Not going to lie, I was really, really disappointed when Bill, Yoshimo, and Chandler FINALLY got a chance to fight on the page, and got completely curbstomped. It wasn't even close. They even had a freaking Sasquatch as backup and got their teeth kicked in.
I don't think they were even in Harry's league, to be honest, at least not by Battle Ground. No idea how they'd have measured up pre-Changes, but Winter Knight Harry completely outclasses them, in my reading of it.

[Mira]

Not going to lie, I was really, really disappointed when Bill, Yoshimo, and Chandler FINALLY got a chance to fight on the page, and got completely curbstomped. It wasn't even close. They even had a freaking Sasquatch as backup and got their teeth kicked in.
I don't think they were even in Harry's league, to be honest, at least not by Battle Ground. No idea how they'd have measured up pre-Changes, but Winter Knight Harry completely outclasses them, in my reading of it.

Yeah, one wonders if Harry had decided to really object and resist the sex-scan and innuendo when they stopped him and Murphy upon their return from the Raith Estate how it would have turned out.  Especially with Murphy as back up, even though she was crippled.  Also if Chandler would have joined his fellow Wardens or would he have been as conflicted as he seemed and either stayed out of the fight or actually joined Harry?

[Second Aristh]

Not going to lie, I was really, really disappointed when Bill, Yoshimo, and Chandler FINALLY got a chance to fight on the page, and got completely curbstomped. It wasn't even close. They even had a freaking Sasquatch as backup and got their teeth kicked in.
I don't think they were even in Harry's league, to be honest, at least not by Battle Ground. No idea how they'd have measured up pre-Changes, but Winter Knight Harry completely outclasses them, in my reading of it.

It was against blampires with no prep time.  I think that was the only way it could have reasonably gone, especially with Drakul there to keep Harry's River Shoulders's attention.  They're all bad news.

Numbers makes a big difference in a fight.  I think individually, Harry could have taken down any of the wardens on that road, but altogether is much much harder. 

Yeah, one wonders if Harry had decided to really object and resist the sex-scan and innuendo when they stopped him and Murphy upon their return from the Raith Estate how it would have turned out.  Especially with Murphy as back up, even though she was crippled.  Also if Chandler would have joined his fellow Wardens or would he have been as conflicted as he seemed and either stayed out of the fight or actually joined Harry?

I think Chandler is more loyal to Ramirez than to Harry tbh.  I doubt he would have gone rogue to help him against the other wardens.

[Kindler]

Jury's out on Steed for me. I can't get a good enough read on him. He could have just been playing Good Cop in that scene, but then again he's also the one who warns Harry about the attack on the Council in Changes. Then again again, he's also one of the ONLY young wardens left at liberty by that point, too, which means he's perceived as trustworthy by enough people with authority (who generally oppose Harry).
I like to think that his time-related magic specialization is giving him clearer glimpses into the future than anyone suspects. I think he's playing his part as best he can and carefully wriggling out of situations in order to support the best outcomes he can perceive. It's also possible that he knows more about people's pasts than he lets on, and uses that information to judge their character more accurately. Knowing someone's past alters the way you perceive them and your behavior toward/around them (at least it does for most people, in my experience).
I don't know what Chandler's deal is, to be honest. Though I fully anticipate him being the catalyst for whatever time travel book we eventually get.

It was against blampires with no prep time.  I think that was the only way it could have reasonably gone, especially with Drakul there to keep Harry's River Shoulders's attention.  They're all bad news.

Numbers makes a big difference in a fight.  I think individually, Harry could have taken down any of the wardens on that road, but altogether is much much harder. 

My issue isn't so much with the fact that they lost; it's that we finally get to see Harry's war buddies fight, and they get wiped. They've got a reputation for being survivors, tough customers, veterans of a bloody and brutal protracted conflict (and then a second one, against the Fomor). I would've liked to have seen them win a fight or three before this encounter, to justify the reputation Harry gives them. It's not quite the Worf Effect, because you at least saw Worf kick plenty of keisters before he started getting his own kicked in return, but it left a similar taste in my mouth.

[Mira]

It was against blampires with no prep time.  I think that was the only way it could have reasonably gone, especially with Drakul there to keep Harry's River Shoulders's attention.  They're all bad news.

They knew they were about to go into battle one way or another when they came across Mavra, Drakul and company, if they are good warriors, and Wardens supposedly are, then they should have been ready.

Numbers makes a big difference in a fight.  I think individually, Harry could have taken down any of the wardens on that road, but altogether is much much harder. 

But he also had Murphy at his back, the two of them have squared off against enemies with much tougher odds and still won.

I think Chandler is more loyal to Ramirez than to Harry tbh.  I doubt he would have gone rogue to help him against the other wardens.

Maybe not full rouge, but at the same time he could have held back just enough not to be of help against Harry.

My issue isn't so much with the fact that they lost; it's that we finally get to see Harry's war buddies fight, and they get wiped. They've got a reputation for being survivors, tough customers, veterans of a bloody and brutal protracted conflict (and then a second one, against the Fomor). I would've liked to have seen them win a fight or three before this encounter, to justify the reputation Harry gives them. It's not quite the Worf Effect, because you at least saw Worf kick plenty of keisters before he started getting his own kicked in return, but it left a similar taste in my mouth.

Agreed, they knew they'd be facing battle shortly, so they should have been ready for anything.  Like you said, they may have still gone down, but they should have taken some with them before they did go down.  After all Harry, Rivershoulders, and Listens to Wind, yes, and Carlos had the same amount of warning and were able to put up a fight.

[groinkick]

They knew they were about to go into battle one way or another when they came across Mavra, Drakul and company, if they are good warriors, and Wardens supposedly are, then they should have been ready.

Drakul by himself could have stomped all of them, even if they had a year to plan.  They can't beat him.

Not going to lie, I was really, really disappointed when Bill, Yoshimo, and Chandler FINALLY got a chance to fight on the page, and got completely curbstomped. It wasn't even close. They even had a freaking Sasquatch as backup and got their teeth kicked in.
I don't think they were even in Harry's league, to be honest, at least not by Battle Ground. No idea how they'd have measured up pre-Changes, but Winter Knight Harry completely outclasses them, in my reading of it.

Harry survived because he was for Drakul.  Mavra could have killed Dresden in an instant.  He was helpless.  He wouldn't have faired any better if Mavra wanted to kill him like the others.

[Mira]

Harry survived because he was for Drakul.  Mavra could have killed Dresden in an instant.  He was helpless.  He wouldn't have faired any better if Mavra wanted to kill him like the others.

Huh?  I don't remember Harry being "for" Drakul..  Harry fared better because when he sneezed huge iron anvils fell out of the sky..  Then again as Listens to Wind said, if you fight these kinds of creatures to a draw, it is a win..