Demonreach, Ley lines, and Harry's connection

[toodeep]

The problem with determining power, who can take who, etc. is complicated by two factors.
1.  Harry has been lied to systematically about how magic works
2.  Situations matter

For part 1 I will say this: we have seen Harry work on formula and calculations of how much power a spell would take and design and blah blah blah.  We know he was taught this by Eb and that Eb even published a book about it.  But we've also heard almost every book about how magic is about belief and emotions and will.  We've seen Harry modify his spells on the fly numerous times - his force shield has been vertical and brittle, it has been horizontal and they've walked on it, its been slanted, its been wrapped in a bubble around him and flexible to absorb shock.  Do you really think he engineered all these or did calculations in his head every time?  No.  Harry has been lied to about magic and it being calculatable that way.  And we know this is typical white council procedure - you are wise enough to manage the power when you are wise enough to figure it out yourself.  They lie to their baby wizards for two reasons - to give them something they can understand and calculate to give them the confidence that they can do some things in a very rigid fashion, and to limit the speed of their power growth until they are wise enough to handle the power.  Right now Harry is learning to trust himself more in all kinds of way, which makes him more powerful as he feels he can/should do more, including veils, etc.

For part 2 - situations matter covers a lot of things.  Are you coming at someone in their lane where all their authority and power applies, or are you coming at them sideways?  Harry is a really straightforward thinker and would easily be taken by something subtle.  It doesn't take a lot of power to counter Harry, it takes knowledge and subtlety. 

[morriswalters]

Fights between wizards can't be settled by pure magic. In that sense Jim wrote these kind of fights out of the book. It doesn't matter how many rocks you can disintegrate, you can't disintegrate humans. Which is why both Carlos and Harry carry guns.

[Second Aristh]

That isn't completely true.  Remember back in Proven Guilty when Harry took on Molly as an apprentice?  Eb told him that doing that would improve his many skills, which it has.  One we know for sure is the use of veils, before Molly he rarely used them, and when he did, and when he did, he said they were next to useless.  Now he can throw a decent one and also uses them a lot more.  It isn't just a physcial boost from being Winter Knight, he has also learned a hell of a lot on how to control it and himself.  He has also learned when and when not to use the ice magic that goes with it.. Also I'd think that ice might neutralize a lot of water magic.  You are also leaving out Soul Fire, Harry has also learned a lot as to how effectively to use it to enhance his spells.  And no, it has been several books now, since Harry has used the "burn it until it's dead" type approach.. I also think he has learned quite a bit from hanging out with Alfred.  Specialty or not, if Carlos wants to take on Harry he will have his hands more than full.  One last question for you, how many fair fights have there been in the whole of the series?  I think only in and even then it is questionable, sanctioned duels will you find that the fights are even remotely fair... And as we saw, one side or the other will cheat some..  No, maybe in sporting matches there will be fair fights, but in combat/war?  It is life and or death, both sides will try to gain their best advantage and worry about fairness later.

We agree in the most orthogonal ways 

I'm not saying that Ramirez can take down Harry in a fair fight.  In fact, I don't think he could in any of the books so far.  What I'm saying is that Ramirez's skill in magic increased faster than Harry's skill in magic lately (to where Harry suspects Ramirez might be as good or better than him at complex spellwork in BG; also note that growing faster is not the same as being better, that's off by a derivative).  Part of this is that Harry's attention has been split in more directions than Ramirez who can afford to spend more time on magic.  Another part is Ramirez's support system is basically all wizards that can help his magic vs Harry's support system being so varied in skill sets. 

[The_Sibelis]

Hmmm, magic is heritary yes? So, is specific magic prowess also? Like, is Harry basically a young Eb? Superpowerful, good at a bit of everything, can beat you in combat because he'll use what you don't have, ect? I know Harry still has some holes in his powerset but most of that I'm starting to think is purely lack of practical practice with it. He adapts and evolves new styles and abilities between almost every book.
I'm hoping if(when?) we see Ramirez vs Harry that Harry has that proverbial rabbit to pull out of his hat. The wizardly insight he's been putting together knowing full well he's gonna have to neutralize him eventually.
Mmm, harry is supposed to start shape shifting eventually I think? That's water magic, first step to overcoming something would be becoming more familiar with it's workings.

[Second Aristh]

Hmmm, magic is heritary yes? So, is specific magic prowess also? Like, is Harry basically a young Eb? Superpowerful, good at a bit of everything, can beat you in combat because he'll use what you don't have, ect? I know Harry still has some holes in his powerset but most of that I'm starting to think is purely lack of practical practice with it. He adapts and evolves new styles and abilities between almost every book.
I'm hoping if(when?) we see Ramirez vs Harry that Harry has that proverbial rabbit to pull out of his hat. The wizardly insight he's been putting together knowing full well he's gonna have to neutralize him eventually.
Mmm, harry is supposed to start shape shifting eventually I think? That's water magic, first step to overcoming something would be becoming more familiar with it's workings.

I don't think magical style is necessarily genetic.  I think an academic type heritage fits the Dresden Files better.  Apprentices have styles most similar to their masters, even if their specialties don't really lead to direct copies.
For example, with Harry and Molly, both of them hammer away big and loud at enemies with their specialties.  Fire, ice, and force for Harry vs illusions for Molly (One Woman Rave, anyone?).  Compare that to someone like Ramirez that is more controlled with his entropy fields or Luccio with her fiery needles.


As a side topic, do we have any other explicit master/apprentice relationships than these?
Eb --> Harry --> Molly
Luccio --> Morgan
Simon --> DuMorne --> Harry / Elaine

[Mira]

Just reread the battle between Harry, Carlos, the Wardens, Rivershoulders and Listen to Winds, with the Major General coming to the rescue with garlic from PizzaSpress, verses Mavra and Drakul and Company.  In that battle Carlos got beat up pretty bad, he was in serious trouble, as was Harry until Toot came to the rescue with the garlic.  After the battle Carlos gave Harry a look and a hardness was described in that look.  In other words Carlos was blaming Harry for what happened to his friends, or at least that is the implication I got from it.  After the battle Carlos wants to go after the vamps and Harry tells him no, they got a bigger battle to fight that they'd get revenge after.  But from that exchange I get the impression that Carlos has been brain washed by someone, first hints was the tracking device, and his somehow thinking the vamps was all Harry's fault.  In a way I suppose, Harry did give Mavra the book.  Anyway, from what went down during that battle Carlos didn't appear stronger than Harry or as strong.

[groinkick]

Just reread the battle between Harry, Carlos, the Wardens, Rivershoulders and Listen to Winds, with the Major General coming to the rescue with garlic from PizzaSpress, verses Mavra and Drakul and Company.  In that battle Carlos got beat up pretty bad, he was in serious trouble, as was Harry until Toot came to the rescue with the garlic.  After the battle Carlos gave Harry a look and a hardness was described in that look.  In other words Carlos was blaming Harry for what happened to his friends, or at least that is the implication I got from it.  After the battle Carlos wants to go after the vamps and Harry tells him no, they got a bigger battle to fight that they'd get revenge after.  But from that exchange I get the impression that Carlos has been brain washed by someone, first hints was the tracking device, and his somehow thinking the vamps was all Harry's fault.  In a way I suppose, Harry did give Mavra the book.  Anyway, from what went down during that battle Carlos didn't appear stronger than Harry or as strong.

Jim didn't say he was as strong.  He actually said if they fought it would be the fencer vs the Olympic lifter.  Remember that David beat Goliath with a little stone because he used it in a very precise, and lethal way.  That's basically how Jim is saying Carlos would win.  That being the case I think we all know that Carlos won't kill Harry, even if he tries. 

[Mira]

Jim didn't say he was as strong.  He actually said if they fought it would be the fencer vs the Olympic lifter.  Remember that David beat Goliath with a little stone because he used it in a very precise, and lethal way.  That's basically how Jim is saying Carlos would win.  That being the case I think we all know that Carlos won't kill Harry, even if he tries.

It isn't about size, one of the morals about the David verses Goliath was even though Goliath was this huge strong mountain of a man, he wasn't the brightest penny in the bag.. David was smaller, but he was brave and smart enough to know that it he could, the best bet was to take Goliath down from a distance.. He also was smart enough to realize he had the right weapon for the job, a sling and a stone.. Oh and another weakness in Goliath, he was way over confident.  In the case of Harry verses Carlos, he might be a heavy weight, but Harry's mind is as agile as a fencer, that is how he has beaten opponents above his weight class for years.  Actually it might be Carlos who has the more calcified brain in a fight. 

[groinkick]

It isn't about size, one of the morals about the David verses Goliath was even though Goliath was this huge strong mountain of a man, he wasn't the brightest penny in the bag.. David was smaller, but he was brave and smart enough to know that it he could, the best bet was to take Goliath down from a distance.. He also was smart enough to realize he had the right weapon for the job, a sling and a stone.. Oh and another weakness in Goliath, he was way over confident.  In the case of Harry verses Carlos, he might be a heavy weight, but Harry's mind is as agile as a fencer, that is how he has beaten opponents above his weight class for years.  Actually it might be Carlos who has the more calcified brain in a fight.

I'm just repeating what Jim said. 

[Mira]

I'm just repeating what Jim said.

I know, but what I am saying there is more than one way of looking at what Jim said.  Which is probably why Jim said it.  One can look at it in terms of mental agility and strength verses physical agility and strength.  All I am saying given what Jim said, it is possible that the weight lifter has a very agile mind, and the fencer not at all which would make a huge difference in a battle..

[The_Sibelis]

I would make a comparison to the guy in GS, fast but dumb vs the genoska fight and his tactical mindset.

[Mira]

I would make a comparison to the guy in GS, fast but dumb vs the genoska fight and his tactical mindset.

Yeah, or Rivershoulders who has the body of a weightlifter and a very agile mind..

[Ed0517]

I knew that, sorry about that, very hard week.... 

sorry to hear it.  Lot of similar titles... Tomorrow is Yesterday, Return to Tomorrow, All our Yesterdays...  can be confusing. Hope this week is better

[Mira]

sorry to hear it.  Lot of similar titles... Tomorrow is Yesterday, Return to Tomorrow, All our Yesterdays...  can be confusing. Hope this week is better

Thank you, you and me both...