Demonreach, Ley lines, and Harry's connection

[Kindler]

And why so many time travel stories fall flat, they are predictable.

Agreed. The time travel stories I tend to like best involve Stable Time Loops and "You've already changed the past" tropes, wherein the story happens exactly as it already did, and the time travel just reveals "Oh, that's what that thing was." TribeTwelve, a found footage Slenderman series I watched religiously during the height of the Slenderman Boom (I wasn't the target age demographic, but I'm a sucker for stories about unknowable Edritch Abominations) is one of a handful of amateur attempts at portraying such a Stable Time Loop. The instances of time travel are used for exposition, not to undo a mistake or something.
Like... I saw Infinity War, and was pretty annoyed at the predictable time travel. They just used it to solve problems and really, REALLY should have screwed up the timeline a whole lot. None of it made sense, and they didn't even try to explain how Thanos from several years previous could come forward in time and be killed without absolutely destroying the entire timeline. By doing that, the Snap never should (or COULD) have happened. I guess they just created an alternate timeline instead where it both happened and didn't happen or something, because it's not even mentioned.
Stuff like that is why I've always disliked multiverse explanations for time travel hijinks.
The best time travel stories I've ever consumed are really, really, really strange for me. The first is Steins;Gate, which has clear rules and limitations placed on it (I strongly recommend watching that particular anime if you haven't already; it's strange and intimate and surprisingly (and pleasantly) complicated, with a particularly good dub if you aren't a fan of subtitles). Anime isn't my favorite medium, but I really do like stories exactly like that.
The other is the Legacy of Kain video game series. It deals with time travel throughout the series, paradoxes, using paradoxes to advantage, eldritch abominations, fate, and vampires. Plus all of the characters are Hams who speak in Shakespearean dialogue in a way I've never seen anyone pull off in a video game. Pity the series hasn't gotten a new entry in like twenty years, because I really, really wanted more.
Anyway, I hope whatever time traveling we see in Dresden isn't a mere plot device to fix a mistake or something, but is done in such a way that makes sense, without violating the previous rules we've seen so far. For exposition, mostly.

[Mira]

 The classic Trek "City on the Edge of Tomorrow," was a very good time travel.  They come upon a device that makes time travel possible to observe.  McCoy goes back by accident, saves someone who should have died and the future of mankind is erased, Kirk and Spock go back to restore it, and of course it is very sad..

[Basil]

I can't believe I had not made the connection between the fact that the Denarians used the Ley Line coming out of Demonreach to power the prison they made for Ivy.  They used the magical "Hawking Radiation" from the prison to make another prison.  Clever.  We knew that Ivy was powerful, but now I think I should raise her up a bit.  I had kind of put her on a level just above the Senior Council, now I wonder if she needs to be above the Winter/Summer Ladies. 

Also, I'm wondering how scary the place on the Never Never side of Demonreach must be.  Is it Biblical Hell?  That would be the closest analogy, right?  Both are the primary prisons of the damned in their respective planes.

[morriswalters]

 The classic Trek "City on the Edge of Tomorrow," was a very good time travel.  They come upon a device that makes time travel possible to observe.  McCoy goes back by accident, saves someone who should have died and the future of mankind is erased, Kirk and Spock go back to restore it, and of course it is very sad..

This is the story Jim should have used for the basis of Mirror Mirror. This is a classic what if story.

Anyway, I hope whatever time traveling we see in Dresden isn't a mere plot device to fix a mistake or something, but is done in such a way that makes sense, without violating the previous rules we've seen so far. For exposition, mostly.

Given Cold Days the story appears to be a time loop, once through.

[Mira]

This is a classic what if story.

Yeah, consider, what if Susan had never gone to that party? 

[Second Aristh]

I can't believe I had not made the connection between the fact that the Denarians used the Ley Line coming out of Demonreach to power the prison they made for Ivy.  They used the magical "Hawking Radiation" from the prison to make another prison.  Clever.  We knew that Ivy was powerful, but now I think I should raise her up a bit.  I had kind of put her on a level just above the Senior Council, now I wonder if she needs to be above the Winter/Summer Ladies. 

Also, I'm wondering how scary the place on the Never Never side of Demonreach must be.  Is it Biblical Hell?  That would be the closest analogy, right?  Both are the primary prisons of the damned in their respective planes.

Harry and Luccio have a conversation about Ivy's relative power level in SmF, I think.  The White Council puts her around the level of the Summer/Winter Lady, but Harry thinks it's an underestimate.  My impression is that Ivy might not have the sheer power of the Ladies, but much better control.  Not to mention the soft power of that much information.

[Mira]

Harry and Luccio have a conversation about Ivy's relative power level in SmF, I think.  The White Council puts her around the level of the Summer/Winter Lady, but Harry thinks it's an underestimate.  My impression is that Ivy might not have the sheer power of the Ladies, but much better control.  Not to mention the soft power of that much information.

But not in that point of time, Ivy was still a child, on one hand she could play the part of the cold Archive, but in many aspects in reality she was a very young child with a child's emotional needs.
Kincaid understood that, as did Harry, but at the same time they both were clueless as to how to meet those needs without screwing up the delicate balance between the Archive and it's host.

[Ed0517]

 The classic Trek "City on the Edge of Tomorrow," was a very good time travel.  They come upon a device that makes time travel possible to observe.  McCoy goes back by accident, saves someone who should have died and the future of mankind is erased, Kirk and Spock go back to restore it, and of course it is very sad..

Sorry, Trekkie nitpick  - "City on the Edge of Forever"

[Ed0517]

Harry and Luccio have a conversation about Ivy's relative power level in SmF, I think.  The White Council puts her around the level of the Summer/Winter Lady, but Harry thinks it's an underestimate.  My impression is that Ivy might not have the sheer power of the Ladies, but much better control.  Not to mention the soft power of that much information.

In the battle of the aquarium, Ivy showed she can make a little go a long way.  Cut off from a good flow, she still kicked butt. And Harry has said he was one of the 20 or 30 strongest, but he does not rate himself near that in battle. Luccio had said she didn't have Harry's power even in her old body (I think they were discussing powering a circle) and Ramirez says outright Harry is stronger than he is, and some say he might be able to take Harry. Hmmm.. how good is a Warden sword against a Soulfire construct? 

[Mira]

Sorry, Trekkie nitpick  - "City on the Edge of Forever"

I knew that, sorry about that, very hard week.... 

[groinkick]

In the battle of the aquarium, Ivy showed she can make a little go a long way.  Cut off from a good flow, she still kicked butt. And Harry has said he was one of the 20 or 30 strongest, but he does not rate himself near that in battle. Luccio had said she didn't have Harry's power even in her old body (I think they were discussing powering a circle) and Ramirez says outright Harry is stronger than he is, and some say he might be able to take Harry. Hmmm.. how good is a Warden sword against a Soulfire construct?

It's actually a pretty cool way of balancing characters, and realistic I think.  Raw horsepower is only one aspect of using magic.  Mental focus, intent, imagination, belief, will, knowledge, experience, emotion, magical preference ect. 

Carlos taking on Dresden has more to do with the type of magic he uses (a water mage is a natural counter to a fire mage), and it's difficult to use because it's delicate (so Harry isn't naturally gifted with it).  Eb on the other hand is the most dangerous wizard in the world when it comes to magical duels as Jim has said that Eb can use all forms of magic, and counter any magic you try to use against him.

[Second Aristh]

It's actually a pretty cool way of balancing characters, and realistic I think.  Raw horsepower is only one aspect of using magic.  Mental focus, intent, imagination, belief, will, knowledge, experience, emotion, magical preference ect. 

Carlos taking on Dresden has more to do with the type of magic he uses (a water mage is a natural counter to a fire mage), and it's difficult to use because it's delicate (so Harry isn't naturally gifted with it).  Eb on the other hand is the most dangerous wizard in the world when it comes to magical duels as Jim has said that Eb can use all forms of magic, and counter any magic you try to use against him.

Yeah.  The biggest difference between Harry and a senior council wizard at this point is the relative level of control.  They're probably as powerful as he is (typically anyway; Eb is an outlier), but the power they can throw around is used much more efficiently.  Ramirez is getting trained alongside other wizards while Harry has been going it mostly alone.  It makes sense that Ramirez is developing that efficient touch faster than Harry.

(as an aside, I don't think Dresden magic typically works pokemon style where water beats fire)

[Mira]

Yeah.  The biggest difference between Harry and a senior council wizard at this point is the relative level of control.  They're probably as powerful as he is (typically anyway; Eb is an outlier), but the power they can throw around is used much more efficiently.  Ramirez is getting trained alongside other wizards while Harry has been going it mostly alone.  It makes sense that Ramirez is developing that efficient touch faster than Harry.

(as an aside, I don't think Dresden magic typically works pokemon style where water beats fire)

I think we are all over rating "power" level or strength when it comes to someone going up against Harry.  Almost always Harry makes the claim that he is fighting above his weight class, or this wizard or that wizard or some other being is way better or stronger that he is at some skill or other.  Yet, most of the time, Harry comes out on top.  Why is that?  Harry also talks about how strong his will is, and that is key..  Out of stubbornness for lack of a better word to accept defeat in most cases, Harry fights until the end..  If there is a way around something, he will find a way... So Carlos is good at water magic, better than Harry, but still we didn't see him use it in Battle Ground when Mavra and company was taking out his friends.  Yes, Harry got lucky with the conjuritis, but he took advantage of it as well.  All I am saying Harry knows Carlos is better at water magic than he is, if Carlos comes for him, he will have figured out a way to neutralize it in time to stop Carlos.  Just like Eb, he knew he'd lose to Eb one on one, so he preplanned with a doppelganger of himself, thus he got away and did what he needed to do.

[Second Aristh]

I think we are all over rating "power" level or strength when it comes to someone going up against Harry.  Almost always Harry makes the claim that he is fighting above his weight class, or this wizard or that wizard or some other being is way better or stronger that he is at some skill or other.  Yet, most of the time, Harry comes out on top.  Why is that?  Harry also talks about how strong his will is, and that is key..  Out of stubbornness for lack of a better word to accept defeat in most cases, Harry fights until the end..  If there is a way around something, he will find a way... So Carlos is good at water magic, better than Harry, but still we didn't see him use it in Battle Ground when Mavra and company was taking out his friends.  Yes, Harry got lucky with the conjuritis, but he took advantage of it as well.  All I am saying Harry knows Carlos is better at water magic than he is, if Carlos comes for him, he will have figured out a way to neutralize it in time to stop Carlos.  Just like Eb, he knew he'd lose to Eb one on one, so he preplanned with a doppelganger of himself, thus he got away and did what he needed to do.

I mean, sure, if it isn't a fair fight, Harry can beat lots of people.  Most fights in this series are not fair fights.

Plus, while Ramirez has been practicing his magic to be more efficient (and growing his skill in magic faster than Harry), Harry has been networking and getting a big physical boost from being Winter Knight.  Harry hasn't been just sitting around, but his skill set is more than just burn it with magic until dead now.  He's not fully specialized in one aspect of combat, so it makes sense that he doesn't keep up with Ramirez in his specialty.

[Mira]

I mean, sure, if it isn't a fair fight, Harry can beat lots of people.  Most fights in this series are not fair fights.

Plus, while Ramirez has been practicing his magic to be more efficient (and growing his skill in magic faster than Harry), Harry has been networking and getting a big physical boost from being Winter Knight.  Harry hasn't been just sitting around, but his skill set is more than just burn it with magic until dead now.  He's not fully specialized in one aspect of combat, so it makes sense that he doesn't keep up with Ramirez in his specialty.

That isn't completely true.  Remember back in Proven Guilty when Harry took on Molly as an apprentice?  Eb told him that doing that would improve his many skills, which it has.  One we know for sure is the use of veils, before Molly he rarely used them, and when he did, and when he did, he said they were next to useless.  Now he can throw a decent one and also uses them a lot more.  It isn't just a physcial boost from being Winter Knight, he has also learned a hell of a lot on how to control it and himself.  He has also learned when and when not to use the ice magic that goes with it.. Also I'd think that ice might neutralize a lot of water magic.  You are also leaving out Soul Fire, Harry has also learned a lot as to how effectively to use it to enhance his spells.  And no, it has been several books now, since Harry has used the "burn it until it's dead" type approach.. I also think he has learned quite a bit from hanging out with Alfred.  Specialty or not, if Carlos wants to take on Harry he will have his hands more than full.  One last question for you, how many fair fights have there been in the whole of the series?  I think only in and even then it is questionable, sanctioned duels will you find that the fights are even remotely fair... And as we saw, one side or the other will cheat some..  No, maybe in sporting matches there will be fair fights, but in combat/war?  It is life and or death, both sides will try to gain their best advantage and worry about fairness later.