Apocalypse is a frame of mind

[morriswalters]

This can't be a coincidence, can it?

Nicodemus studied me for a moment before smiling. "Apocalypse is a frame of mind," he said then. "A belief. A surrender to inevitability. It is despair for the future. It is the death of hope."

“Apocalypse isn’t an event,” Nemesis murmured. “It is a frame of mind.” I probably would have staggered anyway, but the phrase hit hard. “This was less a plan than . . . an act of faith, I suppose you would say,” the Outsider continued through Justine’s lips. “Faith?” I asked. “In what is coming,” the Walker said. “The unraveling of all things into darkness and silence.” “Empty Night,” I breathed.

Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 361). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. 

[Mira]

This can't be a coincidence, can it?

Nope, we tend to think of apocalypse as a huge bomb or disaster of some kind.  What Nic and HWWB are saying it is more of a slow rotting from with in.  Institutions are broken down little by little, loss of faith in those institutions, collapse from with in, the inability to resist outside attacks.

[Griffyn612]

It might be a sign of something deeper going on, or it might be that Butcher forgot that he'd already used that line. He's said before that he forgets a lot from the series because of all the rewrites.

So maybe it's that. Or maybe Nico is infected. Or maybe he's heard the recruitment speech from nemesis himself. Or maybe the Fallen are just as evil as the Outsiders, and operate in a similar fashion.

[Mira]

It might be a sign of something deeper going on, or it might be that Butcher forgot that he'd already used that line. He's said before that he forgets a lot from the series because of all the rewrites.

So maybe it's that. Or maybe Nico is infected. Or maybe he's heard the recruitment speech from nemesis himself. Or maybe the Fallen are just as evil as the Outsiders, and operate in a similar fashion.

I wouldn't be shocked if the Fallen and Nemesis have a common strategy, even if their goals might not be quite the same.. 

[morriswalters]

It might be a sign of something deeper going on, or it might be that Butcher forgot that he'd already used that line. He's said before that he forgets a lot from the series because of all the rewrites.

So maybe it's that. Or maybe Nico is infected. Or maybe he's heard the recruitment speech from nemesis himself. Or maybe the Fallen are just as evil as the Outsiders, and operate in a similar fashion.

I'm taking the fact the phrase 'staggered him' as being significant. As in, he was staggered by his memory of Nic saying that. If Jim did this by accident then I'm going to start carrying a cast iron umbrella to protect me from flying pigs. One would seem to be as likely as the other.

[The_Sibelis]

Two thoughts,
1 I've always thought Nic and Co's true purpose was taking up a place and dispensing an energy type the Walker's specifically utilize. In kind of a necronomicon/alt mirror way(taking up the mirror, is touched on in Woj about if Thomas took up a coin his demon would have the short end of the stick, they'd be trying to occupy the same space)
2 state of mind, Belief, ect. Are they(outsiders) trying to create a belief in the coming apocalypse to give it power? Like a snowball effect? Is "apocalypse" an aspect of a specific being they hope to summon or allow to enter reality itself?

[Yuillegan]

Two thoughts,
1 I've always thought Nic and Co's true purpose was taking up a place and dispensing an energy type the Walker's specifically utilize. In kind of a necronomicon/alt mirror way(taking up the mirror, is touched on in Woj about if Thomas took up a coin his demon would have the short end of the stick, they'd be trying to occupy the same space)
2 state of mind, Belief, ect. Are they(outsiders) trying to create a belief in the coming apocalypse to give it power? Like a snowball effect? Is "apocalypse" an aspect of a specific being they hope to summon or allow to enter reality itself?

Right with you Sibelis.

"State of mind" is the key phrase. I think if humanity as a whole believe (or enough of them at least) that the apocalypse is happening...then it is. They create it from their own minds.

I think this is both a magical phenomenon and a philosophical state. It's not necessarily unrelated either. I don't think the Outsiders could enter and start an apocalypse en masse without mortal's belief allowing it.

Jim has said before most magic happens in the mind. He has also shown how the physical, particularly mortal world has more weight than the spiritual in most senses (but there are a few really important exceptions such as the soul). He has often talked about how mortal choice creates the world they live in and spins off other universes (although let's not get side-tracked too much here).

To me, this is all an excellent indication that what mortals believe in, have faith in (or the lack of faith in), will shape things in seriously significant ways. If the combined mortal psychic state decides that the world is ending, it is inevitable and cannot be saved, that the dark forces have come for them - then it will be so.

This is why the Angels and the Fallen (and other perhaps) fight so hard to influence mortals. Because it's the strongest way to win. It's really the only way.

[morriswalters]

What these events are intended to do is clear enough.  I'm parsing the prose.  Jim often uses pairs of events to draw attention from the first to the second.

[groinkick]

Maybe it was a clue that Nemesis was observing when Harry was with Nicodemus?  Who all was there?

[The_Sibelis]

Maybe it was a clue that Nemesis was observing when Harry was with Nicodemus?  Who all was there?

or, that Nico's thinking is comprised. He's looking for their Judas but not only is he TWCs Judas he's the Denarians Judas too and doesn't know it? Remember, this isn't the first time someone has repeated nic either. Cowl did so when Harry summoned the EK on Halloween iirc. "If I were mad would I even know"? Perhaps these are both Meta clues towards Nic.

[groinkick]

or, that Nico's thinking is comprised. He's looking for their Judas but not only is he TWCs Judas he's the Denarians Judas too and doesn't know it? Remember, this isn't the first time someone has repeated nic either. Cowl did so when Harry summoned the EK on Halloween iirc. "If I were mad would I even know"? Perhaps these are both Meta clues towards Nic.

I either posted about this, or started a topic.  The belief is that Thorned is the one working with Nemesis, and I thought that maybe it was the opposite.  That Nicodemus was compromised, and he doesn't realize it.  He thinks it's Thorned and it's really him.

I was thinking the attack on Arctis Tor was in fact an attempt to stop Nemesis when it was locked up there, but in the end it was too late, and it got Maeve.

[Mira]

I either posted about this, or started a topic.  The belief is that Thorned is the one working with Nemesis, and I thought that maybe it was the opposite.  That Nicodemus was compromised, and he doesn't realize it.  He thinks it's Thorned and it's really him.

I was thinking the attack on Arctis Tor was in fact an attempt to stop Nemesis when it was locked up there, but in the end it was too late, and it got Maeve.

Or if we want to use analogies and what ifs, lets go back to WWII.. If Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Imperial Japan won all they were after, do we really thing they would have ruled the world happily side by side, or would they then have gone picnicking on each other?

[Second Aristh]

I either posted about this, or started a topic.  The belief is that Thorned is the one working with Nemesis, and I thought that maybe it was the opposite.  That Nicodemus was compromised, and he doesn't realize it.  He thinks it's Thorned and it's really him.

I was thinking the attack on Arctis Tor was in fact an attempt to stop Nemesis when it was locked up there, but in the end it was too late, and it got Maeve.

I don't think Nicodemus is compromised, at least not by Nemesis.  If he was, why is he helping reality by unlocking the arsenal in SG?

[Arjan]

I don't think Nicodemus is compromised, at least not by Nemesis.  If he was, why is he helping reality by unlocking the arsenal in SG?

Because he wanted it and he wanted to kill Harry.

[Mira]

Because he wanted it and he wanted to kill Harry.

Yup, and Nic didn't pass the test that Hades told Harry about.  The thing that keeps the Artifacts safe is only someone clever enough to get them is clever enough to use them..  Realize that I was paraphrasing, if that isn't exact.  Bottom line, Harry outsmarted Nic and collected the Artifacts, the joker in this is the Holy Grail that Harry did hand over to him.  If what Michael says about it is true, it will be interesting to see what Nic tries to do with it.