Could Dresden have been wrong about Thorned?

[Mira]

Some Denarian (with hints that it was Namshiel) attacked Arctis Tor, but that's not the retaliation we're talking about.  The Reds violated Mab's and Titania's territories, and Mab didn't allow any retaliation against them in PG.

 True enough, but consider what her main goal was, it was Harry.  Do you doubt that she didn't pull or couldn't pull strings so in the end Harry had no good options other than becoming her Knight in Changes?  He went to Marcone for help, was turned down, he went to Vadderung, he was turned down and pointed in Mab's direction, even Uriel got into the act.. Once Harry consented, Lea was sent in to help, going through the Ways was how they were able to travel to C.I. and Harry proceeded to wipe out the Red Court.. I'd call that pretty good pay back, wouldn't you?  Like I said, someone immortal or nearly so has a different sense of time that mere mortals, they can afford to wait until the timing and conditions are perfect.

[Second Aristh]

True enough, but consider what her main goal was, it was Harry.  Do you doubt that she didn't pull or couldn't pull strings so in the end Harry had no good options other than becoming her Knight in Changes?  He went to Marcone for help, was turned down, he went to Vadderung, he was turned down and pointed in Mab's direction, even Uriel got into the act.. Once Harry consented, Lea was sent in to help, going through the Ways was how they were able to travel to C.I. and Harry proceeded to wipe out the Red Court.. I'd call that pretty good pay back, wouldn't you?  Like I said, someone immortal or nearly so has a different sense of time that mere mortals, they can afford to wait until the timing and conditions are perfect.

In the usual sequence of events, both Summer and Winter go after the Reds immediately like Eb and the White Council were expecting.  This points to weird circumstances that we don't fully understand.

Mab could retaliate against the Reds in PG and still get Harry as Winter Knight in Changes.  She just didn't jump on the chance to do so initially for some reason.

[morriswalters]

Kringle, Cat Sith, Grimmalken, the Red Cap....  Those are just the characters where we have names.  Any of them could lead groups of Winter forces against rampires.

Edit:  Took out Sarissa.  On further thought, I don't think she could have herself led an attack against Reds.

No, no, no and no. Captains captain and Generals General.  Kringal is an Honorary title.

[Second Aristh]

No, no, no and no. Captains captain and Generals General.  Kringal is an Honorary title.

It wouldn't be a war.  It's a lesson that the Reds shouldn't cross into Mab's territory.  Captains are exactly what you want.


Kringle is a winter king (which doesn't mean much by itself except an accepted level of power and reputation), and Mab has worked well with him in the past.  No idea what you mean by honorary title.

[Mira]

Mab could retaliate against the Reds in PG and still get Harry as Winter Knight in Changes.  She just didn't jump on the chance to do so initially for some reason.

No, I don't think so, if Marcone [ a member of the Accords and a close ally of Mab] had agreed to help Harry save his daughter, the odds against Harry becoming her Winter Knight went higher.. If Vadderung, [another member of the Accords and Mab ally] had also agree the odds would have gone up higher still.. And Uriel?  Who knows what his motives were, but my point is Mab is very good at achieving her goals.  In Changes she achieved two of them, wiping out the Red Court, getting her revenge with clean hands, no blame would be pointed in her direction, and she got the Winter Knight she wanted in the process.  If she were writing this post I am sure she'd take great relish in explaining how she did it, while putting the blame elsewhere.

[Second Aristh]

No, I don't think so, if Marcone [ a member of the Accords and a close ally of Mab] had agreed to help Harry save his daughter, the odds against Harry becoming her Winter Knight went higher.. If Vadderung, [another member of the Accords and Mab ally] had also agree the odds would have gone up higher still.. And Uriel?  Who knows what his motives were, but my point is Mab is very good at achieving her goals.  In Changes she achieved two of them, wiping out the Red Court, getting her revenge with clean hands, no blame would be pointed in her direction, and she got the Winter Knight she wanted in the process.  If she were writing this post I am sure she'd take great relish in explaining how she did it, while putting the blame elsewhere.

Mab retaliating against the Reds in PG wouldn't change anything with the Harry/Marcone, the Harry/Vadderung, or the Harry/Uriel relationships.  It doesn't change Harry's trajectory of becoming her knight at all.  Angling Harry to become her knight isn't the reason that Mab held back in PG either.

[morriswalters]

It wouldn't be a war.  It's a lesson that the Reds shouldn't cross into Mab's territory.  Captains are exactly what you want.


Kringle is a winter king (which doesn't mean much by itself except an accepted level of power and reputation), and Mab has worked well with him in the past.  No idea what you mean by honorary title.

When Lily meets Harry with Fix at Mac's this is discussed.  And as I pointed out to you prior to this they don't know that Lea is compromised.  Or that Maeve is.  Putting anybody else on the field exposes that secret. And runs the risk of drawing an attack from Summer. I mean honorary in the sense that he really isn't of Winter. This is in the text.

“All right,” I murmured. “Mab’s got a man in the penalty box. She wants to take the offensive before Summer pushes a power play, and she’s looking for ways to even the odds. If Summer goes running off to take on the Reds, it will give her a chance to strike.” I shook my head. “I don’t pretend to know Mab very well, but she isn’t suicidal. If the imbalance is so dangerous, why is she keeping the Winter Knight alive to begin with? And she must see what the consequences of another Winter-Summer war would be.” I looked back and forth between them. “Right?”

“Unfortunately,” Lily said quietly, “our intelligence about the internal politics of Winter is very limited—and Mab is not the sort to reveal her mind to another. I do not know if she realizes the potential danger. Her actions of late have been…” She closed her eyes for a moment and then said, with some obvious effort, “Erratic.”

Summer isn't all about sunshine and posies. Harry states it bass ackwards.  This is precisely what Mab fears. Namshiel is supporting the side, keeping Mab pinned increases the paranoia and has everyone thinking she may be crazy.  And lets the Reds rampage. YMMV but this works for me.

[Mira]

Mab retaliating against the Reds in PG wouldn't change anything with the Harry/Marcone, the Harry/Vadderung, or the Harry/Uriel relationships.  It doesn't change Harry's trajectory of becoming her knight at all.  Angling Harry to become her knight isn't the reason that Mab held back in PG either.

No, but it is something she kept in her back pocket for later.  Also consider, Mab had herself on ice at the time, it wasn't just Lea taking the cure.  Mab also had contact with the Knife, my feeling has always been that she feared that she herself may have been infected, which could have led to a total disaster if she acted.  While in the healing ice, Mab wouldn't have been able to act.. Considering Harry's conversation with the infected Lea, if Mab was indeed infected and not restrained it would have been disaster.

[Second Aristh]

No, but it is something she kept in her back pocket for later.  Also consider, Mab had herself on ice at the time, it wasn't just Lea taking the cure.  Mab also had contact with the Knife, my feeling has always been that she feared that she herself may have been infected, which could have led to a total disaster if she acted.  While in the healing ice, Mab wouldn't have been able to act.. Considering Harry's conversation with the infected Lea, if Mab was indeed infected and not restrained it would have been disaster.

Mab wasn't healing herself.  Lea was in the Winter Wellspring.  Mab was watching Harry fight the Eldest Fetch as a spectator, hence the wink at the end.  The other frozen figures were Mab's prisoners, like Slate.

[Mira]

Mab wasn't healing herself.  Lea was in the Winter Wellspring.  Mab was watching Harry fight the Eldest Fetch as a spectator, hence the wink at the end.  The other frozen figures were Mab's prisoners, like Slate.

If I remember correctly Harry didn't toss anything down Lea's throat, he talked to her.  Who knows what that wink meant, because if you will remember Lea talked sanely for part of the time as well.

[Second Aristh]

Yes, Harry talked to Lea while she was getting Nemesis walled off in her mind by Mab. Mab took a break, dealt with the Arctic’s Tor attack, and watched her favorite knight candidate deal with a problem he shouldn’t have been able to handle but did anyway. Mab was pleased with the result and winked at him as he left.

[Mira]

Yes, Harry talked to Lea while she was getting Nemesis walled off in her mind by Mab. Mab took a break, dealt with the Arctic’s Tor attack, and watched her favorite knight candidate deal with a problem he shouldn’t have been able to handle but did anyway. Mab was pleased with the result and winked at him as he left.

Could be, but then she planned her revenge and with the added bonus of snagging Harry for her Knight in the process.

[Second Aristh]

Could be, but then she planned her revenge and with the added bonus of snagging Harry for her Knight in the process.

After making the decision to not retaliate for no clear reason and confusing both Summer and the White Council.  Something happening after something else doesn't mean it happened because of the first thing.

[Mira]

After making the decision to not retaliate for no clear reason and confusing both Summer and the White Council.  Something happening after something else doesn't mean it happened because of the first thing.

One possible reason, she had been infected, so clearly retaliation under those circumstances is risky at best.. Mab knows that, she also knows if she gave herself time and treatment like Lea she could overcome Nemesis.  Why she kept it all secret?  Imagine the chaos if even a hint that she might be infected got out.

[Second Aristh]

One possible reason, she had been infected, so clearly retaliation under those circumstances is risky at best.. Mab knows that, she also knows if she gave herself time and treatment like Lea she could overcome Nemesis.  Why she kept it all secret?  Imagine the chaos if even a hint that she might be infected got out.

No, I don't at all believe Mab was worried about herself being infected.  Ordering fetches to bring Molly in is WoJ confirmed, and that kind of action isn't any more drastic than ordering her forces to teach the Reds a lesson.  The idea that Mab needed healing from Nemesis doesn't work.