Could Dresden have been wrong about Thorned?

[vincentric]

You are ignoring the fact that Namshiel is a fallen angel, even if he isn't an archangel he can wield power beyond the comprehension of most.. So yes, Namshiel could do it without help in my opinion, angels without restraint [the Fallen don't play by the rules, that is why they are fallen] has the power to do it without help.

The Fallen are allowed to cheat but any cheating they do the other angels are allowed to balance. If they were throwing around their personal power directly, Uriel and his companions would be allowed to directly interfere. If they had added their power to the Archive, I think she wins the battle outright.

But there is a loophole. Any magic that the Denarians are using is either part of their of their merged forms or an expansion of their host's talent. Given a host with some talent they can teach them magic. But they obviously need a minimum level of talent to work with or else Nic would be a White Council level wizard by now. Thorned Namshiel is probably the best magic user of the Fallen and thus was able to teach Lartessa and Marcone. And even still we're probably only talking an average White Council wizard level not a senior council member or a powerful warden. They're scary because they have superhuman physical abilities to go along with their magic.   

[morriswalters]

I know what Jim wrote and being a literalist, I believe him unless he says otherwise. If he tells me Namshiel did it, then he did it.

I'm a bit confused.  More than Namshiel and Tessa are casting spells in the passages you quoted.  Are you saying that while all the Denarians are capable of using magic, and some of them actually do use magic, but only Namshiel is good enough at magic to be an Arctis Tor candidate?

No Denarian is that good. I don't read everyone as casting spells.  We differ on what we read.

Mab tells you that she and Uriel had a common enemy that day.  Who died that was killed by a Knight? I guess Jim needs to be more explicit. YMMV.

[Second Aristh]

I know what Jim wrote and being a literalist, I believe him unless he says otherwise. If he tells me Namshiel did it, then he did it.

No Denarian is that good. I don't read everyone as casting spells.  We differ on what we read.

Mab tells you that she and Uriel had a common enemy that day.  Who died that was killed by a Knight? I guess Jim needs to be more explicit. YMMV.

I'm still lost.  No Denarian is good enough to do the hellfire at Arctis Tor, but Namshiel did it?

I'm of the camp that Namshiel was likely the source of the hellfire in the attack on Arctis Tor, but I don't follow what you're trying to say.



Perhaps we are differing on what we call spells.  I'd call a specific directed instance of magical energy a spell, so things like the shadowy serpent thing and Rosanna's lances of fire qualify as spells.  The line gets a bit blurrier with the energy surrounding Deirdre's hair.

[morriswalters]

I'm saying Thorned Namshiel was gifted power by Lucifer.  It's the first instance of the proxy war between Lucifer and Uriel.  At the start of PG Michael is sent out of town. His purpose was to see that Eb and the others get to the second trial in time to keep Harry from coming to blows with the Council.  This proxy war is what Harry is angry about in the Chapel in the hospital where he meets Jake at the end of Small Favor.

And Your angels aren’t allowed to stick their toes in unless the bad guys do it first. But I’ve been running some figures in my head, and when the Denarians pulled up those huge Signs, they had to have a lot of power to do it. A lot of power. More than I could ever have had, even with Lasciel. Archangel power. And I can only think of one of those guys who would have been helping that crew.”

Of the seven Lartessa is the one to look at.

[TheCuriousFan]

After Changes or at the end of Proven Guilty?  Just before he turned the coin over to Father Forthill at the end of Proven Guilty he thought he heard Lash, that scared him so he got rid of the coin.  In Changes it is implied that it was Lasciel that goaded him into suicide, the coin still could have been locked away in Forthill's office.  I don't think she affected Harry after that, implied or otherwise.

You're getting your timelines muddled there. The coin was under his lab before PG and it stayed there until the end of book 9 (WN). In book 12 (Changes) it has been several years since book 9 so it would be exceedingly unlikely that Forthill hadn't passed the coin along by then.

I'm still lost.  No Denarian is good enough to do the hellfire at Arctis Tor, but Namshiel did it?

I'm of the camp that Namshiel was likely the source of the hellfire in the attack on Arctis Tor, but I don't follow what you're trying to say.



Perhaps we are differing on what we call spells.  I'd call a specific directed instance of magical energy a spell, so things like the shadowy serpent thing and Rosanna's lances of fire qualify as spells.  The line gets a bit blurrier with the energy surrounding Deirdre's hair.

Namshiel is the magic nerd of the denarians that's part of why he's singled out as the prime suspect even though Rosanna's thing is fire, fire and more fire.

[Ed0517]

Namshiel is the magic nerd of the denarians that's part of why he's singled out as the prime suspect even though Rosanna's thing is fire, fire and more fire.

He is, and rightfully so, I am just wondering if you had a more advanced student - like an Ascher - could she have had a coin before Lasciel? Some other warlock? it might not take a TN to coach them up to a lot of power.  kind of like if you had a couple of foreign exchange students at Harvard - the guy who is 5'6" 140, you could bring in Belichick, he isn't likely to make the football team, even Division III. The 6'5" rugby player can likely start at outside linebacker by Saturday with minimal input.   

[Second Aristh]

I'm saying Thorned Namshiel was gifted power by Lucifer.  It's the first instance of the proxy war between Lucifer and Uriel.  At the start of PG Michael is sent out of town. His purpose was to see that Eb and the others get to the second trial in time to keep Harry from coming to blows with the Council.  This proxy war is what Harry is angry about in the Chapel in the hospital where he meets Jake at the end of Small Favor.

Of the seven Lartessa is the one to look at.

Ah okay, yeah Lucy put his two cents in for this operation for sure.  I had the impression that he did it as a one-time thing (so Namshiel would have had to go back to the well to pull off another hellfire circle) as opposed to Uriel giving Harry access to soulfire in general.

The Archive gave Tessa half her attention in the Shedd, but I'd imagine that calculus would have changed if Namshiel had also been there slinging spells.  On a magical strength scale, I'd rate it:  Namshiel > Tessa >> rest of the Denarians

Getting back to your point, is the theory Lucifier-powered hellfire at Arctis Tor delivered by Namshiel?  Namshiel got a permanent power boost from Lucy that made him able to throw that much fire around?
The first is frightening for the implications that Lucy is taking sides in the Outside v Inside conflict.  The second is frightening for the consequences with Marcone.



As far as Lasciel (or arguably Anduriel) as the whisperer in Changes, that was long after Harry had turned over her coin.  Regardless, during PG, Lasciel's coin was still in Harry's basement floor.  Without time shenanigans, it couldn't have been Hannah Asher at Arctis Tor.

[Mira]

You're getting your timelines muddled there. The coin was under his lab before PG and it stayed there until the end of book 9 (WN). In book 12 (Changes) it has been several years since book 9 so it would be exceedingly unlikely that Forthill hadn't passed the coin along by then.

My timeline isn't muddled..  You are right it was White Night when Forthill got the coin, however it isn't a stretch to think the coin might sill be locked in his office as of Changes.. We have no clue as to how frequent the coins collected by the Knight are picked up..  We do know it was Lasciel whispering to Harry in Changes which speaks to her coin not being very far away, that is my point.

[morriswalters]

I doubt that Namshiel got a permanent boost and I could be altogether wrong about Lucifer helping him in PG.  But Jim has done everything but set up a flashing neon sign pointing at Namshiel. And I doubt Jim will revisit it in any case. That Arc is finished. The only real puzzle left will be resolved in the time travel book.

[Second Aristh]

My timeline isn't muddled..  You are right it was White Night when Forthill got the coin, however it isn't a stretch to think the coin might sill be locked in his office as of Changes.. We have no clue as to how frequent the coins collected by the Knight are picked up..  We do know it was Lasciel whispering to Harry in Changes which speaks to her coin not being very far away, that is my point.

WoJ is that distance isn’t really a factor in how the fallen operate in their coins.

What’s the range of influence for the Fallen in the coins? How far can they extend themselves away from their Denarian hosts?
Oh, their range is very, very limited, to this one little planet.
2011 DC signing

I doubt that Namshiel got a permanent boost and I could be altogether wrong about Lucifer helping him in PG.  But Jim has done everything but set up a flashing neon sign pointing at Namshiel. And I doubt Jim will revisit it in any case. That Arc is finished. The only real puzzle left will be resolved in the time travel book.

The time travel elements in PG do need to be resolved still. Like you said, the time travel book is coming. I’d imagine the events of PG are a major focus. (Also my guess is future!Harry is the source of the Gatekeeper’s message getting Harry on Molly’s trail.)

[morriswalters]

The time travel elements in PG do need to be resolved still. Like you said, the time travel book is coming. I’d imagine the events of PG are a major focus. (Also my guess is future!Harry is the source of the Gatekeeper’s message getting Harry on Molly’s trail.)

I don't imagine it will be and Rashid doesn't need Harry's help for that. Ask yourself why Jim made the choice to have LC be broken.

[groinkick]

I don't imagine it will be and Rashid doesn't need Harry's help for that. Ask yourself why Jim made the choice to have LC be broken.

With the attack on Arctis Tor, Little Chicago, and the Corner Hounds I'm wondering if there is going to be a time travel book where Harry is going to many different points in history, chasing someone else who's trying to mess things up.

Plot twist:  There was Hellfire, but the one who nuked Mab's army was Dresden using Soulfire.

[morriswalters]

With the attack on Arctis Tor, Little Chicago, and the Corner Hounds I'm wondering if there is going to be a time travel book where Harry is going to many different points in history, chasing someone else who's trying to mess things up.

Plot twist:  There was Hellfire, but the one who nuked Mab's army was Dresden using Soulfire.

Is there really another kind of time travel story?

[Second Aristh]

I don't imagine it will be and Rashid doesn't need Harry's help for that. Ask yourself why Jim made the choice to have LC be broken.

Does he need it, no, but it's more helpful that way for Rashid to be well out of the way of breaking any Laws.

"Hindsight," I murmured.  "You mean he went to the future for this?"
"Well," Bob hedged.  "That would break one of the Laws, so probably not.  But he might have sent himself a message from there, or maybe gotten it from some kind of prognosticating spirit.  He might even have developed some ability for that himself.  Some wizards do."

Harry using Rashid as a messenger to give himself a message from the future works well.  It also fits with his altercation in TC where Rashid says it isn't Harry's time to defy the WC yet.  Yet being the operative word.  If Rashid met future!Harry, say at the Outer Gates, he'd know something was going to go down along those lines.  Harry couldn't risk telling Rashid too much, though, or he'd jeopardize his timeline.

With the attack on Arctis Tor, Little Chicago, and the Corner Hounds I'm wondering if there is going to be a time travel book where Harry is going to many different points in history, chasing someone else who's trying to mess things up.

Plot twist:  There was Hellfire, but the one who nuked Mab's army was Dresden using Soulfire.

There's a book going to be dedicated to every Law, so we're in for some time travel for sure.  My guess is that it'll be the last book before the BAT.  That way, it can be used as a way to get Harry's eyes on all the important plot points that have been happening in the background of the other books.  Dresden books have a pattern, and that pattern fractals out for the series as a whole.  Introduce the problem (StF thru GP-ish), big mid-book fight (Changes thru CD), big aha mystery solved moment (time travel book), finale fight to fix it (BAT).

Going on that idea where the time travel book is the mystery reveal near the end, we can probably see clues of future!Harry in the background of several other case files (with plausible explanations of why it might not be time travel to throw us off the trail).  My current list of candidates is:

• PG message to Rashid and PG more generally
• non-attributed "fuego" at Chichen Itza
• Little Chicago being fixed (possibly not by Harry himself, but asking an ally)
• PT cornerhounds

[Mira]

Is there really another kind of time travel story?

I'm thinking if that is what it comes down to in the end, it is a real cop out in terms of story telling..
Oh yeah, Harry or someone traveled back in time and altered all of that stuff... That for me at any rate would be a huge disappointment.