Who summoned the Cornerhounds?

[Second Aristh]

What are the motivations of Nemesis then in your estimation?  Back to your point of Justine being rid of Harry, physically maybe, but that in no way makes her rid of him.  No, I think Harry's cut reaction is dead on to Justine's reaction, "does Lara know?"  Sorry that isn't normal, especially when you add what Eb says about a star born like Harry and why he poses a danger to Outsiders, he can see through their crap!  That is why the boat trip ultimately fails for Nemesis, when it is calm, even though exhausted, Harry finally sees through her.  Justine also knows to bring Lara in not because she will help Thomas, but because she will be sympathetic to her!  Lara won't be able to see through Justine, but Harry has that ability, she needs Lara to take her side. Which she does and insists that Harry take her to Thomas on the boat.

Nemesis wants to end reality.  After it sent Thomas to kill Etri, it was only a matter of time before Harry figured out Justine was the culprit.  Physically being rid of him for a couple hours was fine at that point.
"Does Lara know?" isn't that far out there (with the caveat that it was a Nemesis screw up in actuality).  It's understandable that Lara would come to mind for Justine as someone she worked with daily and who she knows loves Thomas as well.

You are totally ignoring the fact that we are now talking about infected Justine... Infected Justine who admits on the boat that she worked to get pregnant to set Thomas up.  In short, she is no longer playing with a full deck, an insane person still has free will, it might not be rational, but as a mortal she is free to call up the Cornerhounds. 

So you're saying that Justine had an episode of insanity and was tricked by Nemesis into summoning outsiders?  Sorry, I don't buy that either.

Think Justine of the boat trip at the end of Battle Ground, not sweet Justine of the earlier books.  At the beginning of the trip she was so sweet so concerned about Thomas, she hugs Harry.. Then she asks why he did what he did?  Then she questions Harry and sort of confesses "Were they trying to use us,against him?" Us? As in her and the baby? Who was?  Then Harry goes to rest because he is exhausted. He starts to replay all of what had happened in his mind.  1] That Thomas had been trying to say Justine.  Not calling out the name of his love, but that she made him do it. 2] Then he returns to the scene in the apartment,

The sweet Justine kind of melts away, just that quick.. Oh the body is there and the beautiful face, but it isn't her at all.  Then He Who Walks Beside, explains who he is and his mission, which should answer all your questions as to why Outsiders aren't summoned up as armies to get it over with it just isn't their style... They'd rather go about it this way;

Outsiders want to end reality.  They don't particularly care how it comes about.  "Not their style" isn't convincing.

The reason that Nemesis is sneaky is because forcing mortals to summon an unstoppable army of outsiders isn't an option, i.e. forcing Justine to summon the cornerhounds isn't an option.

[groinkick]

The reason that Nemesis is sneaky is because forcing mortals to summon an unstoppable army of outsiders isn't an option, i.e. forcing Justine to summon the cornerhounds isn't an option.

One thing to consider is that Justine/Nemesis has a wizard ally capable of summoning Outsiders....  Listen could be that person.  He's a Starborn....  Perhaps that's why he betrayed Ethniu, because he's an agent of Nemesis.  Morgan was worried that Harry, as a Starborn was an "agent of Nemesis". 

[Second Aristh]

One thing to consider is that Justine/Nemesis has a wizard ally capable of summoning Outsiders....  Listen could be that person.  He's a Starborn....  Perhaps that's why he betrayed Ethniu, because he's an agent of Nemesis.  Morgan was worried that Harry, as a Starborn was an "agent of Nemesis".

Listen is more likely than Justine, but I still don't like him for it.  You don't insert creatures famously associated with time travel into a story without there being time travel involved.

As a side note, starborn isn't a subcategory of wizard, is it?  We've never seen Listen throw around any magic.

[The_Sibelis]

One thing to consider is that Justine/Nemesis has a wizard ally capable of summoning Outsiders....  Listen could be that person.  He's a Starborn....  Perhaps that's why he betrayed Ethniu, because he's an agent of Nemesis.  Morgan was worried that Harry, as a Starborn was an "agent of Nemesis".

they also kidnapped a bunch of low level practitioners, likely to brainwash them into service (though, perhaps to harvest resources.. or make kraken for some reason)

[Mira]

One thing to consider is that Justine/Nemesis has a wizard ally capable of summoning Outsiders....  Listen could be that person.  He's a Starborn....  Perhaps that's why he betrayed Ethniu, because he's an agent of Nemesis.  Morgan was worried that Harry, as a Starborn was an "agent of Nemesis".

You don't have to be a star born to summon an Outsider, at least I don't think you do.  Was Madge a star born? 

Nemesis wants to end reality.  After it sent Thomas to kill Etri, it was only a matter of time before Harry figured out Justine was the culprit.  Physically being rid of him for a couple hours was fine at that point.
"Does Lara know?" isn't that far out there (with the caveat that it was a Nemesis screw up in actuality).  It's understandable that Lara would come to mind for Justine as someone she worked with daily and who she knows loves Thomas as well.

Perhaps, but that was the sentence that tips Harry off that something isn't right about Justine. He says it at the apartment when she first says it and later on the boat, it was a tip off.  So while you may think it is understandable, Harry's gut reaction was that there was something not quite right about it.  Perhaps it wasn't so much what she said but how she said it.

So you're saying that Justine had an episode of insanity and was tricked by Nemesis into summoning outsiders?  Sorry, I don't buy that either.

No, her brain had already been taken over, she wasn't tricked, she'd already contrived to get pregnant by that time and proceed to push Thomas into committing murder.  Are you saying that
she was still sweet normal Justine at that point?  Because she wasn't.

Outsiders want to end reality.  They don't particularly care how it comes about.  "Not their style" isn't convincing.

Go back and read what He Who Walks Beside says, yes, they want to end reality, but they want to do it slowly from with in..  They are kind of like a cat playing with a mouse, it could end it quickly but it isn't.. It revels in the rot from with in.

they also kidnapped a bunch of low level practitioners, likely to brainwash them into service (though, perhaps to harvest resources.. or make kraken for some reason)

Yes, and lets not forget that is what Lord Raith did, he managed to recruit and brainwash Madge in order to summon Outsiders.  She was a low level practitioner.

[vincentric]

But if Justine is not driving, then how do the cornerhounds get summoned?

I doubt she would have sent Thomas on a suicide mission and then summoned an assassination squad against Harry of her own choice. That was Nemesis. And if it can summon Outsiders with controlled victims, then why do it in the backyard of the defenders of reality instead of a secluded hidden fortress?

Don't get me wrong. I love these books and I hope I survive to see the end of the story. But there are plot holes and inconsistencies just not enough to ruin it for me.

[morriswalters]

The specificity of the creature called makes no sense in the ongoing plot.

Jim hasn't been entirely consistent but no character that I can think of has done anything like a summoning without it being signaled somewhere in the books. So scotch the Doorman. We've seen a ritual to call them and it was long and involved(aka Madge) so time is a factor. And Harry was looking for Magic when Eb found him.  Wherever the attack came from, it wasn't in the close vicinity of Harry and Eb.

[Snark Knight]

One thing to consider is that Justine/Nemesis has a wizard ally capable of summoning Outsiders....  Listen could be that person.  He's a Starborn....  Perhaps that's why he betrayed Ethniu, because he's an agent of Nemesis.  Morgan was worried that Harry, as a Starborn was an "agent of Nemesis".

WOJ was that starborn don't have to worry about being hijacked by Nemesis, although I suppose Listen could have made a deal to serve their side willingly as Harry has been offered a few times. I don't think he's shown any talent whatsoever,  though - he was giving Molly trouble just by being an intelligent warrior (sort of like dark side anti-Murphy). I don't think she'd have done even as well as she did as the Rag Lady against him if he had magic too.

Could just be that long-term nemfected try to get a Circle / Black Council ally near them (or on call to be able to get near them on short notice through the Ways) to handle this sort of thing for them.

[Mira]

But if Justine is not driving, then how do the cornerhounds get summoned?

I doubt she would have sent Thomas on a suicide mission and then summoned an assassination squad against Harry of her own choice. That was Nemesis. And if it can summon Outsiders with controlled victims, then why do it in the backyard of the defenders of reality instead of a secluded hidden fortress?

Don't get me wrong. I love these books and I hope I survive to see the end of the story. But there are plot holes and inconsistencies just not enough to ruin it for me.

On her own, no, Justine wouldn't do that, but she has been infected for some time now.. Her mind has been affected, and even though she isn't what she was, she is still a mortal, and as a mortal she will do the bidding of the voices she hears in her head..  So while Nemesis might be driving, Justine is still the car, it is her mortal horn that is blowing to call up the Cornerhounds.  Madge wasn't possessed, Justine is, do perhaps in that case no ritual needed.  Heck one might not have been needed in the case of Madge, but it was a way of brainwashing her.  In the case of Lea and Maeve, nothing was called up but Nemesis was able to infect via the Knife. 

[Second Aristh]

Perhaps, but that was the sentence that tips Harry off that something isn't right about Justine. He says it at the apartment when she first says it and later on the boat, it was a tip off.  So while you may think it is understandable, Harry's gut reaction was that there was something not quite right about it.  Perhaps it wasn't so much what she said but how she said it.

Sure, it's a little weird, and with time to think it probably helps Harry put the pieces together on the boat.

No, her brain had already been taken over, she wasn't tricked, she'd already contrived to get pregnant by that time and proceed to push Thomas into committing murder.  Are you saying that
she was still sweet normal Justine at that point?  Because she wasn't.

But taken over, Justine wasn't the one in control.  No mortal free will there to summon outsiders.  I'm saying she wasn't just Justine at that point, so she couldn't summon outsiders.  (Thomas got it on with Nem!Justine.  It was HWWB in the driver's seat.)

Go back and read what He Who Walks Beside says, yes, they want to end reality, but they want to do it slowly from with in..  They are kind of like a cat playing with a mouse, it could end it quickly but it isn't.. It revels in the rot from with in.

Nah, they aren't sneaky because they want to toy with reality.  They're sneaky because that's their only option to destroy reality.

Yes, and lets not forget that is what Lord Raith did, he managed to recruit and brainwash Madge in order to summon Outsiders.  She was a low level practitioner.

Raith tricked Madge into helping him.  It's not the same thing as possessing her.

But if Justine is not driving, then how do the cornerhounds get summoned?

I doubt she would have sent Thomas on a suicide mission and then summoned an assassination squad against Harry of her own choice. That was Nemesis. And if it can summon Outsiders with controlled victims, then why do it in the backyard of the defenders of reality instead of a secluded hidden fortress?

Don't get me wrong. I love these books and I hope I survive to see the end of the story. But there are plot holes and inconsistencies just not enough to ruin it for me.

Yep, exactly.  Nemesis can't force mortals to summon outsiders, or the Outer Gates would be barely a speed bump for them.  At best, it can trick them into doing it willingly.

[Mira]

Sure, it's a little weird, and with time to think it probably helps Harry put the pieces together on the boat.

The point is, he knew it was off when she said it the first time out.. Just like in his conversation with Cat Sith, he pressed and Nemesis revealed itself.  He didn't press Justine in the apartment because he was already distracted by what Thomas had did,what had happened to him and his fears for Justine.

But taken over, Justine wasn't the one in control.  No mortal free will there to summon outsiders.  I'm saying she wasn't just Justine at that point, so she couldn't summon outsiders.  (Thomas got it on with Nem!Justine.  It was HWWB in the driver's seat.)

 
Do you not think that it is possible that at that point Nemesis could threaten, Justine, Thomas, and more importantly her baby?  The threat was enough for Thomas to foolishly try to murder and disrupt the Accords.. So is it not logical that that kind of threat would push the mortal Justine to call up the Cornerhounds? Yeah, it was HWWB in the driver's seat, and he pushed Justine to blow the horn.   

Nah, they aren't sneaky because they want to toy with reality.  They're sneaky because that's their only option to destroy reality.

Thank you for making my argument... You are answering your own question as to why they just don't get someone to call up a whole army. 

Raith tricked Madge into helping him.  It's not the same thing as possessing her.

No it is not, but the point is, he got a mortal to help him call up an Outsider..  Justine wasn't always the sane little thing we see today let us not forget.. Nemesis occupies her brain, but her mind still exists, no doubt they communicate, who knows what Nemesis is telling her, it could very well have tricked her into seeing Harry as come kind of threat to her and her baby, thus the mortal Justine does what needs to be done with a little umph from Nemesis to call up the Cornerhounds.

Yep, exactly.  Nemesis can't force mortals to summon outsiders, or the Outer Gates would be barely a speed bump for them.  At best, it can trick them into doing it willingly.

Which it did, I don't think Nemesis can possess someone if they are unwilling either. 

[groinkick]

Listen is more likely than Justine, but I still don't like him for it.  You don't insert creatures famously associated with time travel into a story without there being time travel involved.

Could you give some info on this?  I looked up Corner Hounds and it only talked about them being creatures from Peace Talks and no mention of time travel.  That is a big deal and tend to agree time travel was going on if this is the case.

As a side note, starborn isn't a subcategory of wizard, is it?  We've never seen Listen throw around any magic.

My understanding based on WoJ is that anyone can be a Starborn as long as they are in the right place at the right time (I also believe they have to be born at that time but he didn't say that in his last interview).  So I could see a lot of people with no wizarding talent at all that are Starborn.

Listen may not be a wizard but he does seem to understand the wizarding stuff by the things he's done:

"Listen is sent as a messenger to the Grey Ghost, who he addresses as "Lady Shade", from Lord Omogh.[1] He was also the leader of the gang of Fomor servitors that attacked Molly Carpenter.[2]

Like all servitors, he wears a black turtleneck. His eyes have changed from a clear grey during the combat with Molly Carpenter to a deep purple like a "bruised corpse" during the visit with the Grey Ghost. In Bombshells he is described as a pale skinned, fit man of middle height with dark, intelligent eyes and a military short haircut.[1][3]

Listen is able to remain cool and observant in the midst of combat. He figured out Molly's illusions and was smart enough to wait out Harry Dresden's fire spell until it wore out.[2] When dealing with the Grey Ghost, Listen could disarm her by displaying his humility and loyalty to his Lord.[1] He has the protection of the Fomor Empress, as the Fomor Lord in "Bombshells" points out (when discussing Listen) that he would not be so stupid as to kill a "special pet of the Empress" even in an "accident".[3]

His weaponry include "seashell bombs": tiny nuclear-like blasts,[2] in addition to a gun and what appears to be a wakizashi[Footnote 1] or a ninja-to
"

I don't know if he has wizard level magic but I figure he must have some level of talent to figure out Molly's illusions.

[Second Aristh]

The point is, he knew it was off when she said it the first time out.. Just like in his conversation with Cat Sith, he pressed and Nemesis revealed itself.  He didn't press Justine in the apartment because he was already distracted by what Thomas had did,what had happened to him and his fears for Justine. 

Fine, already distracted, so no need for Justine to summon cornerhounds, even if she could.

Do you not think that it is possible that at that point Nemesis could threaten, Justine, Thomas, and more importantly her baby?  The threat was enough for Thomas to foolishly try to murder and disrupt the Accords.. So is it not logical that that kind of threat would push the mortal Justine to call up the Cornerhounds? Yeah, it was HWWB in the driver's seat, and he pushed Justine to blow the horn.   

You think that Nemesis can threaten Justine into helping kill the person that has the best chance of saving Thomas? 

Thank you for making my argument... You are answering your own question as to why they just don't get someone to call up a whole army. 

Because they can't call up a whole army.  Not on their own.  They can't just strong arm mortals into doing it.  Justine didn't call up the cornerhounds.

[Second Aristh]

Could you give some info on this?  I looked up Corner Hounds and it only talked about them being creatures from Peace Talks and no mention of time travel.  That is a big deal and tend to agree time travel was going on if this is the case.

Butters calls them the Hounds of Tindalos.

My understanding based on WoJ is that anyone can be a Starborn as long as they are in the right place at the right time (I also believe they have to be born at that time but he didn't say that in his last interview).  So I could see a lot of people with no wizarding talent at all that are Starborn.

Listen may not be a wizard but he does seem to understand the wizarding stuff by the things he's done:

"Listen is sent as a messenger to the Grey Ghost, who he addresses as "Lady Shade", from Lord Omogh.[1] He was also the leader of the gang of Fomor servitors that attacked Molly Carpenter.[2]

Like all servitors, he wears a black turtleneck. His eyes have changed from a clear grey during the combat with Molly Carpenter to a deep purple like a "bruised corpse" during the visit with the Grey Ghost. In Bombshells he is described as a pale skinned, fit man of middle height with dark, intelligent eyes and a military short haircut.[1][3]

Listen is able to remain cool and observant in the midst of combat. He figured out Molly's illusions and was smart enough to wait out Harry Dresden's fire spell until it wore out.[2] When dealing with the Grey Ghost, Listen could disarm her by displaying his humility and loyalty to his Lord.[1] He has the protection of the Fomor Empress, as the Fomor Lord in "Bombshells" points out (when discussing Listen) that he would not be so stupid as to kill a "special pet of the Empress" even in an "accident".[3]

His weaponry include "seashell bombs": tiny nuclear-like blasts,[2] in addition to a gun and what appears to be a wakizashi[Footnote 1] or a ninja-to
"

I don't know if he has wizard level magic but I figure he must have some level of talent to figure out Molly's illusions.

Yeah, I don't think starborn are a subcategory of wizards either.  It's not too hard to figure out that Molly might be using illusions based on her past history.  I think Listen is just especially competent from what we've seen so far.

[Mira]

ou think that Nemesis can threaten Justine into helping kill the person that has the best chance of saving Thomas?

Yes,if it threatens to kill her baby..

Because they can't call up a whole army.  Not on their own.  They can't just strong arm mortals into doing it.  Justine didn't call up the cornerhounds.

Why not? It managed to strong arm Thomas into becoming an assassin which could have led to the down fall of the Accords, which could lead to worse.  And then again, it may not have strong armed her, it may have tricked her, who knows?  You forget how Maeve managed to convince Lily to go along with her by skillful lying.  The Fae are not supposed to lie, but when infected she did very well.  Nemesis can lie, so who knows what that voice was saying in her head.  HWWB is a slimy character, hell yeah he could have talked her into it.