Outsiders origins

[groinkick]

Alright I have a theory about their origins.  So much of the Dresdenfiles is about the power of Belief, and it manifests into actual Beings.  For example the belief in the season of Winter gives power to the Winter Sidhe.  So just the belief in weather creates a source of power that can be controlled by a Being of some kind.

So here is where I think Outsiders come from.  The fear of the unknown.  I think that the fear of the unknown and everything associated with it is what powers them.  It's why they are so completely alien, and terrifying.  Because they are a pure unknown, malevolent force.  They are all matter of mysterious terror.  I think that just about any mortal Being (and probably many Immortal ones), have a fear of what they cannot know.  TWG locked them out, and I'm thinking it's because TWG doesn't fear the unknown because all is known.  Nobody else has that though.  Everyone besides TWG has some insecurity towards the unknown, it's a primal fear for anything that thinks.  That's a lot of power going somewhere...

Just an idea of mine.  I also think that this unknown terrors could be a clue into Behind, Beside, and Before.  What do you think?

[Griffyn612]

I'm not really seeing it. I don't think there's been any mention of the Outsiders growing more powerful due to any human condition, has there? Beside talks about chaos being progress, but it's not like anything was said about them like it was said about the Eye of Balor. That fed off fear in general.

I still lean more towards fear being something Inside can use, but the Outside is beyond such things because they're just Chaos itself.

Like Serack's Theory, I think there was a balance of Order and Chaos in a space, and TWG separated the two, with Order staying inside and Chaos going out. And just like Avatars were made out of Order on the Inside, Avatars were made of out of Chaos on the Outside.

The only connection I see between Outsiders and fear in general is that fear can lead to desperation, which is close enough to chaos to help their agenda.

Do you have any examples of Outsiders and fear of the unknown, or any other fear? I know we're limited in what we've seen of them, but I can't recall much.

[Second Aristh]

I would think being created by mortals would make Outsiders technically "insiders" tbh.

[groinkick]

I'm not really seeing it. I don't think there's been any mention of the Outsiders growing more powerful due to any human condition, has there? Beside talks about chaos being progress, but it's not like anything was said about them like it was said about the Eye of Balor. That fed off fear in general.

I still lean more towards fear being something Inside can use, but the Outside is beyond such things because they're just Chaos itself.

Like Serack's Theory, I think there was a balance of Order and Chaos in a space, and TWG separated the two, with Order staying inside and Chaos going out. And just like Avatars were made out of Order on the Inside, Avatars were made of out of Chaos on the Outside.

The only connection I see between Outsiders and fear in general is that fear can lead to desperation, which is close enough to chaos to help their agenda.

Do you have any examples of Outsiders and fear of the unknown, or any other fear? I know we're limited in what we've seen of them, but I can't recall much.

Serack's theory sounds like it's pretty solid.  The only problem with it is chaos at least appears to exist in the mortal world.  Maybe not, maybe to those with a birds eye view it's not chaotic but the whole concept of free will would appear to create chaos.

Well I wasn't just speaking about humans, or mortals.  I mean everything besides TWG.  For humans it's probably centered around death (drowning, pain, fire, falling, blinking into nothingness, hell ect).  They fear what it could mean.  For children it's fear of the dark because they can't see what's there.  For Immortals it's the fear of losing that Immortality and what would come after (like mortals).

The Unknown isn't just fear.  It's a lack of control.  I guess you could compare it to chaos.  You have no control over the unknown, and for some (especially Immortals) it may be 10 fold what it is for mortals who have to grow up with unknowns.  So I see the Unknown as a combination of fears, insecurities, chaos, and lack of control.  Mix them all together into a toxic sludge and you have the Outsiders.

[The_Sibelis]

Some of that is skewed from my perspective but the overall thesis fits. They might not be these things, but they can use the form to get in. We've seen examples of things taking form gathering energy and essentially becoming that thing in truth, of course. They are the human wondering and fear of the unknown, of beyond reality, things that don't exist, dark shadows of things that do. Some of those things are tethered here because they haven't, or can't be forgotten. That the primary knights on the table are the negatives of humanities most powerful emotions doesn't seem a coincidence. Some things have found a place inside, but those things seem to be as old as time and not willing to work with the status quo. Speaking of, things like the winter court. We know the wall was once assaulted by the Jotun. This is a time and place where such was considered 'beyond' the realm. Now for all intents and purposes it appears Mab lives in their old domain. I'd point out, they currently have generic Lovecraft vibes, which might be the point, in generating the idea Lovecraft gave them a new mirage to work through. I think every cycle those things the outsiders try to use to get in, whatever unbalanced force they find, finds a champion inside who wields it and becomes the avatar, taking up that place in reality from them. Right now they seem to be using magic and apparently subverting things like love, hope and faith itself. Of course, Thomas would be the perfect champion of toxic, broken love..

[Snark Knight]

Like Serack's Theory, I think there was a balance of Order and Chaos in a space, and TWG separated the two, with Order staying inside and Chaos going out. And just like Avatars were made out of Order on the Inside, Avatars were made of out of Chaos on the Outside.

Something along those lines, yeah. Primordial chaos.

But also, the Outsiders are the servants of the Old Ones ... who are still inside. The Walkers aren't the pinnacle of the lovecraftian pantheon, they're the knights of the even higher powers that were put to sleep in lieu of casting them outside.

[Yuillegan]

Alright I have a theory about their origins.  So much of the Dresdenfiles is about the power of Belief, and it manifests into actual Beings.  For example the belief in the season of Winter gives power to the Winter Sidhe.  So just the belief in weather creates a source of power that can be controlled by a Being of some kind.

So here is where I think Outsiders come from.  The fear of the unknown.  I think that the fear of the unknown and everything associated with it is what powers them.  It's why they are so completely alien, and terrifying.  Because they are a pure unknown, malevolent force.  They are all matter of mysterious terror.  I think that just about any mortal Being (and probably many Immortal ones), have a fear of what they cannot know.  TWG locked them out, and I'm thinking it's because TWG doesn't fear the unknown because all is known.  Nobody else has that though.  Everyone besides TWG has some insecurity towards the unknown, it's a primal fear for anything that thinks.  That's a lot of power going somewhere...

Just an idea of mine.  I also think that this unknown terrors could be a clue into Behind, Beside, and Before.  What do you think?

It's not a bad theory. I would clarify though for it to work, it isn't the unknown that the Outsider would represent but the unknowable. One is to pick a direction on a compass and head in that direction and explore, and the other is to say the compass cannot take me where I wish to go. The Unknown implies it can be discovered, the Unknowable can never be discovered. The latter fits the Outsiders better, at least to me.

It's fairly similar to the Warhammer/Warhammer 40k idea of the Chaos Gods - which were loosely based on Lovecraftian Entities. Jim himself was a big fan of Warhammer (and may still be) so it's possible he's lifted certain parts into his own works. In fact, I am fairly sure he has when it comes to his belief-magic mechanism. In Warhammer, the emotions and ideas of mortals take shape in the Immaterium/Warp/Realm of Chaos/Realm of Thought. These emotions and thoughts are what created the Daemons (old British spelling of Demons), Gods and other such beings.

While I think Jim has used some of that - it doesn't gel with his more recent statements about these beings like Angels and [some] Gods existing before time began and before the Creation Event. The Outsiders would naturally be a part of that - and Jim said the main reason they hate reality is that it's "too noisy" which suggests that they existed before the "noise" of reality/Creation.

My take would be that it isn't so much that mortals create these beings but that these beings already exist, and take the shapes of mortal concepts/ideas/beliefs within certain bounds. Sort of like filling a water balloon with different things to create different shapes. The balloon is the structure of the being which it can exist within, but it's mortal concepts that actually shape it. But the being itself is like the water or sand or whatever is being put in the balloon. Does that makes sense?

In the case of the Outsiders...because they don't seem to play by the rules as much as other beings my guess is that the battle they have is about will power - specifically free will. They are disordered beings forced to take shape because of Creation. Which they massively resent. Imagine if you were a multi-extradimensional being forced to be "real" and instead of being like a current in an ocean you became surrounded by land and cut off from the infinite ocean you once were a part of? Horrible. I think this is somewhat like what happens to Outsiders who come into reality. So they try and assert their will over local reality (wherever they happen to be) and try and change it into a more familiar state - chaos. Reality doesn't like too much chaos though and tries to order itself, hence mortals. Maybe that's the real value in mortals (in a sense). They always try and order the chaos. Even if they invite it in themselves. Almost like a perfect internal reality defence...

Anyway, I am getting ahead of myself. Back to my metaphor about balloons. If normal supernatural beings are like water in balloons being shaped, then Outsiders are more like the water trying to be it's own balloon and make it's own shape. Sometimes the mortals force it to be more balloon-like, sometimes the Outsider gets to be more water like.

I'm not really seeing it. I don't think there's been any mention of the Outsiders growing more powerful due to any human condition, has there? Beside talks about chaos being progress, but it's not like anything was said about them like it was said about the Eye of Balor. That fed off fear in general.

I still lean more towards fear being something Inside can use, but the Outside is beyond such things because they're just Chaos itself.

Like Serack's Theory, I think there was a balance of Order and Chaos in a space, and TWG separated the two, with Order staying inside and Chaos going out. And just like Avatars were made out of Order on the Inside, Avatars were made of out of Chaos on the Outside.

The only connection I see between Outsiders and fear in general is that fear can lead to desperation, which is close enough to chaos to help their agenda.

Do you have any examples of Outsiders and fear of the unknown, or any other fear? I know we're limited in what we've seen of them, but I can't recall much.

See, I'm not so sure there was Order and Chaos in the beginning any more. Jim has said it could be like that...but it isn't like he has said TWG is perfect order and Azahoth is perfect chaos for example. I am not sure he will ever explain it all that clearly. One thing he has said a few times is that Before (as in before Creation) was such a different mode of existence it would be hard for mortals to truly understand it, as we are beings of cause and effect (and before Creation cause and effect hadn't yet been invented). In a way, I don't know that it really matters whether Order and Chaos poles first existed or not, because "first" wasn't really a thing. The only "real" point of reference that is relevant is the moment of Creation, let their be light etc. Everything "before" then is beyond comprehension and all arguments are both true and false...which makes it semantics.

I do think perfect Order and Chaos exist since Creation began though. I don't quite know what that looks like but I think that part of Serack's theory is essentially right.

Something along those lines, yeah. Primordial chaos.

But also, the Outsiders are the servants of the Old Ones ... who are still inside. The Walkers aren't the pinnacle of the lovecraftian pantheon, they're the knights of the even higher powers that were put to sleep in lieu of casting them outside.

Certainly some of the Old Ones. I am not so sure all of them are Inside. I am not certain that even all of them even ever got Inside the first time around. If Outside is essentially *infinite* then it could well stand to reason that there are infinite Old Ones and Outsiders, in the Outside potentially. A place of no limits doesn't have...limits. That being said I suspect (just like in the Chronicles of Amber, from which Jim has heavily borrowed) that the closer the Outsiders and the Outside are to Creation, the more "real" they are forced to become (like how close a Shadow is to Amber, the more ordered it is and vice-versa with Shadows near Chaos). Hence why Creation hasn't been overwhelmed by Outsiders yet. The Outsiders can't just break all the rules. Which I think is almost alien in concept to them as an existence of no rules or laws (in a physics sense) is to us. They are like the Machines outside the Matrix. They understand the Matrix to a degree yet they also can't quite grasp the nuances, the intangibles etc. They can no more enter the Matrix physically than anything else can. So they are limited.

I think it's the same for the Outsiders. They are forced to play by the rules when they get close, which already frustrates and confuses them in the first place, and then they are limited and can't quite understand the fundamentals of reality. So they are left to mimic and guess at it. Which means mortals end up confusing them - particularly like Harry.

[vincentric]

I see it a little more simply.

In the time before Creation, there was Chaos and all the Primordial Beings lived in the same environment.

Then boom! TWG and his followers make their own private area. But it's bright and noisy and makes the Outsiders work around it to do anything and it doesn't adhere to the pre-existing rules.

Basically, reality is that new or remodeled house that the Outsider HOA can't stand but that they can't find a way to make conform. 

[The_Sibelis]

See, I'm not so sure there was Order and Chaos in the beginning any more. Jim has said it could be like that...but it isn't like he has said TWG is perfect order and Azahoth is perfect chaos for example.

eh, that's kinda a western viewpoint of polar opposites. Those things work in tandem in eastern culture. The Ying-yang for instance, DR and mother winter could be seen as that vital dot, and Angels might be the opposing dot metaphorically speaking..

[Yuillegan]

eh, that's kinda a western viewpoint of polar opposites. Those things work in tandem in eastern culture. The Ying-yang for instance, DR and mother winter could be seen as that vital dot, and Angels might be the opposing dot metaphorically speaking..

Indeed, but Jim has used a very strong Western flavor to his mythos so it's not an unreasonable connection in my view. I mean, I am cobbling together an idea out of snippets Jim has said, mild hints from the series, and one very long but quite reasonable theory that Serack came up with a while ago. I mean, I am bound to be wrong to some extent (as we all are). But I think we're starting to home in on some of the bigger things. The thing is Mother Winter (and Demonreach - although I'm not sure Alfred is one the same scale exactly) and the Angels is that are all beings from Creation. Yes they might have existed before Creation began, like the Outsiders, but there does seem to be a fundamental difference between beings from Inside and those who are called Outsiders. It's more than simply factional - Outsiders seem to be an entirely different species to everything that isn't an Outsider. I'm not saying there isn't a relation or connection but they do seem very, very different in their characteristics to Insider beings (including Gods and Angels who may have existed *before*).

Another way to look at it might be that both are correct. The answers are not necessarily mutually exclusive. As I said in my other comment, when dealing with concepts that go beyond Time and Space as relative to mortal understanding it might be impossible to understand fully for us. It might not even make sense because not all the elements play by the established rules. Chaos by definition has no rules.

I see it a little more simply.

In the time before Creation, there was Chaos and all the Primordial Beings lived in the same environment.

Then boom! TWG and his followers make their own private area. But it's bright and noisy and makes the Outsiders work around it to do anything and it doesn't adhere to the pre-existing rules.

Basically, reality is that new or remodeled house that the Outsider HOA can't stand but that they can't find a way to make conform. 

I think that's essentially what I was saying but you put far more succinctly, which I much prefer to my rambling. 

[The_Sibelis]

Indeed, but Jim has used a very strong Western flavor to his mythos so it's not an unreasonable connection in my view.

... Which western mythos deal's with order and chaos exactly? It's eastern in origins that I'm aware of, the closest western version I can think of is Norse.(I meant it's an interpretation of others philosophy, done wrong)Jim flavors things with what he knows best, but he did alot of research and has dipped into other cultures only when he thinks he can do them justice.
Well, when Harry thinks lasciels truest form is a blond Greek woman and Jim wojs angels might just THINK they are the original millennia old beings and I'd heavily disagree. Some of those beings might be the original, like MW, but that doesn't make everything on that scale that old necessarily. Outsiders despite being an entirely different species than others, still seem to play by particular metaphysical elements too. The rule of three, thirteen manifestations, ect. And those things that are the original being, have had some very strong outsider leanings at that, MW being a prime example, even ignoring MS saying "it's not your world", to her.. it's not like she can lie. We still have hades, a clearly inside deity, wearing outside death metal as a crown. The connections run parallel between beings, maybe at the deepest levels, but they are there..

[Yuillegan]

... Which western mythos deal's with order and chaos exactly? It's eastern in origins that I'm aware of, the closest western version I can think of is Norse.(I meant it's an interpretation of others philosophy, done wrong)Jim flavors things with what he knows best, but he did alot of research and has dipped into other cultures only when he thinks he can do them justice.
Well, when Harry thinks lasciels truest form is a blond Greek woman and Jim wojs angels might just THINK they are the original millennia old beings and I'd heavily disagree. Some of those beings might be the original, like MW, but that doesn't make everything on that scale that old necessarily. Outsiders despite being an entirely different species than others, still seem to play by particular metaphysical elements too. The rule of three, thirteen manifestations, ect. And those things that are the original being, have had some very strong outsider leanings at that, MW being a prime example, even ignoring MS saying "it's not your world", to her.. it's not like she can lie. We still have hades, a clearly inside deity, wearing outside death metal as a crown. The connections run parallel between beings, maybe at the deepest levels, but they are there..

Well...kinda all of them? The Greeks had dual concepts of order and chaos (and the Roman versions to a lesser degree). The East-West split is a false dichotomy really anyway - where does ancient Egypt fall? Or Australia (which since settlement by the British is considered Western but the indigenous culture that preceded it surely isn't)? Irish, Welsh, Scottish, Russian, German, Scandanavian...all have strong concepts of order vs chaos.

But I was more referring to the flavor of his books i.e. Christianity. Not to mention his love of the Chronicles of Amber and his clear and stated inspiration from that series.

I think that WOJ about beings only thinking they might be millennia old beings was Jim playing devil's advocate to the questioner at the time. It certainly has been contradicted by far more recent statements recently about these beings actually existing pre-Creation of Everything. I've got a matrix post coming up that you might like which I think will help address a lot of apparent inconsistencies.

Outsiders play by those particular rules...in the universe. Who knows what rules they play by (if any) in the Outside?

Well, this is why I think the Outsiders and Angels and Gods are not as dissimilar as we think. If they all existed pre-Creation then in a sense they are all Outsiders (just like in Dungeons and Dragons, I might add). My guess is beings like Mother Winter and Ethniu are closer to the Outsiders because they miss that state of existence...they miss the power of the Chaos end of Outside. But TWG created (or is) the Order end of Outside and they wanted to be involved in his combination of Order and Chaos i.e. Creation (the multiverse). The more Outsider-like beings like Mother Winter just want to eat Reality but they don't want the buffet to disappear altogether, hence why she fights against other Outsiders. Ethniu wishes to rule etc. Angels and the more benign gods like Vadderung are more Order aligned and are also trying to protect the Inside from their frenemies like Fallen and Winter etc.

Jim said a that Harry thinks all of Creation is the multiverse and Outside - but that's all he knows about. Which Jim says might not be all there is, there ain't no more - but it's all Harry knows about. Which could suggest the Outside is more than just the elemental chaos Harry thinks it is. It could be an enormous Void containing the poles of Order and Chaos with Creation (the multiverse) in between. Maybe even multiple Creations...

I feel like the Outsiders are more than a species, they are a faction. They consume more than simply convert. Like a giant metaphysical virus. It doesn't matter what the being once was because it becomes an Outsider, it becomes corrupted. Which is how your theory about Greek gods ending up as Outsiders could work.

[The_Sibelis]

I think that WOJ about beings only thinking they might be millennia old beings was Jim playing devil's advocate to the questioner at the time. It certainly has been contradicted by far more recent statements recently about these beings actually existing pre-Creation of Everything. I've got a matrix post coming up that you might like which I think will help address a lot of apparent inconsistencies.

looking forward to it! (Edit: Now excuse me while I do a very crap job explaining this, I tried)It's not that I don't think they existed, but that they aren't the genuine original. Like, if we didn't know Mab was a mantle and not the original Winter Queen.. (trying to think of other times creatures contradict themselves, I'll have to remember to look next time I do a reread) if we didn't know the mechanism from our perspective it wouldn't make sense.. looking at the graces, we don't know what mechanisms control them not being simply loaned but given permanently to another (I supposite that's possible if only because Swords have received grace's apparently, something that directly changed and limited the form they took, and the idea Angels, or at least Archangels, have a mortal portion, perhaps only to give them subjective free will to act inside reality 🤔), what if one of those grace's took on a mortal body? Would the angel change or would, with Angels being described as absolute, the mortal bend into the shape of the angel? I think this is exactly what happened with the fallen before they were forced into coins. Without the coin's to limit them, once they wrapped themselves around a soul they simply consumed it entirely. Lasciels form, was probably the last human she had as a true host.
Tangential, I think putting a starborn inside a grace is exactly how you do the opposite, and change the shape of the angel to match the host.

I feel like the Outsiders are more than a species, they are a faction. They consume more than simply convert. Like a giant metaphysical virus. It doesn't matter what the being once was because it becomes an Outsider, it becomes corrupted. Which is how your theory about Greek gods ending up as Outsiders could work.

not a bad comparison really. As I've mentioned elsewhere I think the outsiders come in different layers and flavors just as reality has different layers to it. Which reconsiles beings that used to exist with beings that have never existed. Iirc Lea uses a word I key to necromancy when she's talking about how the universe itself remembers, the echo's of creation or something, this is one of the scenes that made me consider where do dead god's go, and what happens to those who don't have an Afterlife, or who hosted a version of an Afterlife.

Well, this is why I think the Outsiders and Angels and Gods are not as dissimilar as we think. If they all existed pre-Creation then in a sense they are all Outsiders (just like in Dungeons and Dragons, I might add). My guess is beings like Mother Winter and Ethniu are closer to the Outsiders because they miss that state of existence

yes indeed, I've begun to wonder if some of our earliest mythology didn't happen before reality existed in the DF, a bridge being found I think in Greek mythology between things before the titans and the Gods like Zeus who settled in reality.
Although, I account wether things like MW and such are considered outsiders, is because of what energy spectrum they tend to run off of. We have a running theme of things changing based on if they are creators or destroyers. Angels, wizards, ect.
These things are the balance, especially seen between mother's, if they together are Gaia for instance, then reality is based on a structure of order and chaos. Creation and destruction. Life AND death. They balance each other. And the farther away from them you get the more nuances there are in the balancing act. They are inside, and allowed to stay, because they stand on the other side of the fulcrum and prevent the outsiders from simply flipping the whole thing over. Also why DR exists I think, he could theoretically banish things outside, but instead traps in inside where it still exists in reality without being able to effect reality or actually exist inside as most of them would probably break it similar to Ferro or MW.
It's kinda ingenious really. Kinda reminds me of the planet killer bomb in battlefield earth(book, wasn't in the movie), they use complicated teleportation technology that the destruction of a planetary body would completely throw off every calculation for, so instead they liquefy the planet so it's mass is still there holding the universe together. If you can see the parallel there?
Ethniu, wasn't an outsider I don't think, she didn't feel like one anyway. But that's a different complication.

[Kindler]

But also, the Outsiders are the servants of the Old Ones ... who are still inside. The Walkers aren't the pinnacle of the lovecraftian pantheon, they're the knights of the even higher powers that were put to sleep in lieu of casting them outside.

You know, I wonder if there is an opposing equivalent to the Old Ones who are likewise "asleep" on the Outside. Like a beacon of Order amidst the Chaos, versus giant blobs of Chaos amid the Order of Inside.
I'd imagine that Archangels are probably the equivalent of the Old Ones, but I could be wrong. Mostly I just want there to be good-aligned Kaiju to fight against Cthulhu.

[morriswalters]

I'm having a hard time following, but for what it's worth you can't have order without chaos or disorder. If this isn't so then how do you know which is which? The universe is ordered and is moving towards perfect disorder. From one state of entropy to another. So the White God could be taking energy from the Outside to order the Universe for his creations. It would be like plugging into your neighbors outside outlet to heat your house.