Has Justine Been Faking It All Along?

[Second Aristh]

I still really want to know how Nemfection happens.  What is It limited to with regards to how it infects someone?

I don't think we have much information on how it happens exactly.  The interview with Jim I watched about a week ago made it seem like there might be multiple avenues for it, but the big takeaway I got from it was that Nemesis had limited resources in order to do what it does.  We don't have an idea about how limited, but I'd guess that slowly taking over humanity one-by-one like a zombie horde is probably not possible.  It has to be more strategic than infect anyone and everyone.

[groinkick]

I don't think we have much information on how it happens exactly.  The interview with Jim I watched about a week ago made it seem like there might be multiple avenues for it, but the big takeaway I got from it was that Nemesis had limited resources in order to do what it does.  We don't have an idea about how limited, but I'd guess that slowly taking over humanity one-by-one like a zombie horde is probably not possible.  It has to be more strategic than infect anyone and everyone.

yeah.  Nemesis seems more like it's on a very specific mission.  To cause a cataclysmic event.  Breaking into Demon Reach, or an imbalance with the Sidhe.  It's a creator of chaos.  If it could trigger such an event, it would be a big enough thing as to allow others to take advantage of the situation. 

[Mira]

I still really want to know how Nemfection happens.  What is It limited to with regards to how it infects someone?

 Or is everyone forgetting that Justine from the beginning was considered "insane"?  Perfect cover for an inside job don't you think?  Since she was considered insane, no one would suspect if she seemed a bit off from time to time. The White Court is a member of the Accords, has been from the start, perhaps Nemesis didn't have a specific mission in mind from the beginning, but it had the perfect undercover agent inside to pull off mischief when the conditions presented themselves.  I'd say instead of being infested when she was held "captive" by the Fomor, that is when the plans for the mission went down.. 

[forumghost]

Because Nemesis has no need for an undercover agent in the White Court when all indications are that Lord Raith was deeply connected with Outsiders to begin with, and if it did need an undercover agent, the Girlfriend of House Raiths Black sheep that is being set up for death would be a terrible Choice?

Besides, Narratively it really takes away from Thomas's situation if "lol she never loved you and was a plant the whole time".

[Mira]

Because Nemesis has no need for an undercover agent in the White Court when all indications are that Lord Raith was deeply connected with Outsiders to begin with, and if it did need an undercover agent, the Girlfriend of House Raiths Black sheep that is being set up for death would be a terrible Choice?

Besides, Narratively it really takes away from Thomas's situation if "lol she never loved you and was a plant the whole time".

One could also ask since Lord Raith has the Outsider connection why would they need to infect Justine in the first place?  No, the assumption is that there is a close connection between Lord Raith and Outsiders, it has yet to be proven without a doubt.

Why would it narratively take away from Thomas's situation?  The fact that Justine/Nemesis had set him up from the beginning makes his life all the more tragic..  Just think all the sacrifice for nothing,
and unless Justine's brain was totally replaced on the boat when Nemesis admits to deliberately getting pregnant to set Thomas up, Justine didn't love him in that moment, now the question is, did she ever love him?  No, it just makes Thomas a totally tragic figure, lots of narrative value in that..

[Second Aristh]

One could also ask since Lord Raith has the Outsider connection why would they need to infect Justine in the first place?  No, the assumption is that there is a close connection between Lord Raith and Outsiders, it has yet to be proven without a doubt.

Why would it infect Justine at all?  Because Lara mind whammied their old handle on the White Court.  Once he's out of the picture in BR, time to start looking for a new agent.  Hey, that competent aide we saw in WN might work out well.  Lara seems to be leaning on her a bit.  Oh, she's also got connections to that annoying starborn?  Perfect.  Let's get her on the team.

Jokes aside, Papa Raith explicitly has Outsider connections with the HWWB ritual.  It's not an assumption.  I don't think he was infected himself, but there's a good case to be made he was a Black Council member, and Nemesis is working with them anyway.

Why would it narratively take away from Thomas's situation?  The fact that Justine/Nemesis had set him up from the beginning makes his life all the more tragic..  Just think all the sacrifice for nothing,
and unless Justine's brain was totally replaced on the boat when Nemesis admits to deliberately getting pregnant to set Thomas up, Justine didn't love him in that moment, now the question is, did she ever love him?  No, it just makes Thomas a totally tragic figure, lots of narrative value in that..

"Love is a lie" is just not a widely compelling message.  Besides, if Nemesis could have predicted all the dominoes falling into place for it to have gone after Justine from the very beginning, reality should have collapsed a long time ago.  It's too sloppy a storytelling device.

[Mira]

"Love is a lie" is just not a widely compelling message.  Besides, if Nemesis could have predicted all the dominoes falling into place for it to have gone after Justine from the very beginning, reality should have collapsed a long time ago.  It's too sloppy a storytelling device.

Is it?  Since it wasn't telegraphed I wouldn't call it a sloppy story telling device.  In fact it is a very realistic one, during the Cold War, the Soviets did that very thing, agents would move here, speak perfect American English, be very American, marry, have children, no one knew until it happened and actual damage was done, that this person was a spy for the other side all along.  I'm not saying it happened often, but it happened.  Doesn't matter whether or not Lord Raith is associated with Outsiders, Justine wasn't embedded to hurt the White Court..  When she turned Thomas lose to assassinate the head of one of the Accord members, she didn't give a fig about what happened to Thomas as a result, that was coldly done.  And since Lord Raith as we know from Blood Rites doesn't care about Thomas either and was willing to sacrifice him if it broke Margaret's death curse, he applaud it.

y would it infect Justine at all?  Because Lara mind whammied their old handle on the White Court.  Once he's out of the picture in BR, time to start looking for a new agent.  Hey, that competent aide we saw in WN might work out well.  Lara seems to be leaning on her a bit.  Oh, she's also got connections to that annoying starborn?  Perfect.  Let's get her on the team.

Point is, it did infest Justine, and yes, for those very reasons you just stated..  So she could strike
when there was an opening.

Jokes aside, Papa Raith explicitly has Outsider connections with the HWWB ritual.  It's not an assumption.  I don't think he was infected himself, but there's a good case to be made he was a Black Council member, and Nemesis is working with them anyway.

And it is very possible that Lord Raith has known all along that Justine was infested... And that his son, Thomas would be a willing dupe for her to toy with, and the connections to Harry..

[Avernite]

I'm just not buying that True Love (caps deliberate) could be created by an Outsider. I believe it wouldn't know how, far too human a thing. So at least at the point where True Love was triggered, Justine was still fundamentally herself.

Granted, the Thomas case makes clear a background infection that isn't a full possession can still experience True Love. So Justine could, I suppose, have been a sleeper agent; infected but not modified much.

[Second Aristh]

Is it?  Since it wasn't telegraphed I wouldn't call it a sloppy story telling device.  In fact it is a very realistic one, during the Cold War, the Soviets did that very thing, agents would move here, speak perfect American English, be very American, marry, have children, no one knew until it happened and actual damage was done, that this person was a spy for the other side all along.  I'm not saying it happened often, but it happened.  Doesn't matter whether or not Lord Raith is associated with Outsiders, Justine wasn't embedded to hurt the White Court..  When she turned Thomas lose to assassinate the head of one of the Accord members, she didn't give a fig about what happened to Thomas as a result, that was coldly done.  And since Lord Raith as we know from Blood Rites doesn't care about Thomas either and was willing to sacrifice him if it broke Margaret's death curse, he applaud it. 

Point is, it did infest Justine, and yes, for those very reasons you just stated..  So she could strike
when there was an opening.
And it is very possible that Lord Raith has known all along that Justine was infested... And that his son, Thomas would be a willing dupe for her to toy with, and the connections to Harry..

Those are all reasons why Nemesis would want to infect Justine sometime after BR.  The question at hand is when Justine was infected, not if she was or not.

To be a plant from the very beginning is much less likely than being infected after BR.  For one, it would require Nemesis to be lying on the boat (why write it where Nemesis was intentionally vague and giving false information at the same time?).  Next, it would mean that the majority of Thomas's character growth is based on a lie, which is not a great writing choice.  It's the same idea why people hate the "It was a dream all along" story ending. 
Then it would require that Nemesis was a good enough chess player to have predicted the convoluted way this random mortal would somehow dance her way into the position of the White Queen's secretary (and if its chess master skills are so strong, how is someone like Harry even a problem at all?) and/or why it was worth investing so much energy into this mortal instead of a better target.

[Mira]

Those are all reasons why Nemesis would want to infect Justine sometime after BR.  The question at hand is when Justine was infected, not if she was or not.

Or infected before, there is motive you know?  If Lord Raith instigated it for example, then he pushes
Justine together with Thomas.  He both would like to get rid of Thomas and he knows who his brother is.  No, the more I think of it, the more likely she was always infested.

To be a plant from the very beginning is much less likely than being infected after BR.  For one, it would require Nemesis to be lying on the boat (why write it where Nemesis was intentionally vague and giving false information at the same time?).  Next, it would mean that the majority of Thomas's character growth is based on a lie, which is not a great writing choice.  It's the same idea why people hate the "It was a dream all along" story ending. 

I don't see Thomas's character growth being based on a lie.  His growth came from his own feeling, that was sincere, not his fault if he was duped.  Justine wasn't trying to get pregnant out of love for Thomas.. That weren't a dream.

Then it would require that Nemesis was a good enough chess player to have predicted the convoluted way this random mortal would somehow dance her way into the position of the White Queen's secretary (and if its chess master skills are so strong, how is someone like Harry even a problem at all?) and/or why it was worth investing so much energy into this mortal instead of a better target.

Nemesis is a very good chess player, that is what makes it so dangerous.. So dangerous in fact that Titania only whispers it's name.  As I said, implanted Justine is no random mortal, just sat back quietly acting a bit crazy to take advantage where ever she could and she did.

[Snark Knight]

First question, were they or weren't they in true love at that time?  Because if they were, all Justine would have done was burn Thomas up.  And actually if he suspected it, and as we know wanted to get rid of his son, that might be why Lord Raith sent Justine to him. 

In BR the protection seemed to require an act of self-sacrifice to set up. Thomas' little sister was able to get away from the Raiths because the guy who was going to be her first took a bullet for her. Justine was willing to die to save Thomas, and he risked his life stopping feeding on her.

The sacrifice requirement seems to have been softened a bit in later installments.

[Second Aristh]

Or infected before, there is motive you know?  If Lord Raith instigated it for example, then he pushes
Justine together with Thomas.  He both would like to get rid of Thomas and he knows who his brother is.  No, the more I think of it, the more likely she was always infested.

No, not evidence for infecting her before, because Justine wasn't anywhere near that strategic position that makes her worth acquiring before BR (really before WN imo).  Before BR, Justine was black sheep of the family Thomas's mortal girlfriend; that's basically it.  There were much better targets for Nemesis to spend its finite resources on before BR.

I don't see Thomas's character growth being based on a lie.  His growth came from his own feeling, that was sincere, not his fault if he was duped.  Justine wasn't trying to get pregnant out of love for Thomas.. That weren't a dream.

Like I said, your mileage may vary.  Taking Thomas's character arc to "Psych, she never really loved you" is not a good storyline for me.  I don't think that viewpoint would be uncommon.

Nemesis is a very good chess player, that is what makes it so dangerous.. So dangerous in fact that Titania only whispers it's name.  As I said, implanted Justine is no random mortal, just sat back quietly acting a bit crazy to take advantage where ever she could and she did.

Before BR, Justine really is just some random mortal that Thomas fell in love with.  Her choices and circumstances elevate her position only after BR, which makes that a good early bound for when Nemesis got its hooks into her.

For mortal Justine to be worth the resources for Nemesis to grab, she needs to be secretary to the White Queen at least.  To have predicted Justine from the beginning was going to get there requires Nemesis to correctly guess
1)  Random mortal Raith picked would be compatible with Thomas for more than a fling
2)  Justine would need to survive not being eaten by baby-rampire Susan; and that probably only happens because Harry intervenes in time.
3)  Justine survives fatal feeding from Thomas
4)  Lara takes Justine under her wing instead of setting her up somewhere quietly out of the way
If any one of those things doesn't go exactly right, Nemesis loses out on its investment of resources in the Justine plant.  Nemesis would have had to predict all of those unpredictable outcomes years in advance.  If it could do that, Nemesis should have ended reality centuries ago.

[Mira]

No, not evidence for infecting her before, because Justine wasn't anywhere near that strategic position that makes her worth acquiring before BR (really before WN imo).  Before BR, Justine was black sheep of the family Thomas's mortal girlfriend; that's basically it.  There were much better targets for Nemesis to spend its finite resources on before BR.

Um, black sheep, a little crazy?  Sounds a bit like Maeve doesn't it?  Hmmm... Target, the brother of a star born who defeated He Who Walks Behind at sixteen...  I'd say perfect positioning.

Like I said, your mileage may vary.  Taking Thomas's character arc to "Psych, she never really loved you" is not a good storyline for me.  I don't think that viewpoint would be uncommon.

That is your view point, mine is I think time travel is over done and way to easy a way out of things.
But that doesn't make those view points common or uncommon..

Before BR, Justine really is just some random mortal that Thomas fell in love with.  Her choices and circumstances elevate her position only after BR, which makes that a good early bound for when Nemesis got its hooks into her.

No, she wasn't random, I'd have to go back and read, I seem to remember she was selected kine to feed the family, I seem to remember Lord Raith chose her for him.

For mortal Justine to be worth the resources for Nemesis to grab, she needs to be secretary to the White Queen at least.

Why?  Yes, that is what she ended up as, but what she did, she didn't need to be secretary.  All she had to do was become the lover of Thomas, and then get herself pregnant, she then had all the leverage she needed to get him to upset the apple cart.

1)  Random mortal Raith picked would be compatible with Thomas for more than a fling

It may appear random, but not really, as a male, Raith saw his son as a threat.. The choice was a bit more complicated than merely random.

2)  Justine would need to survive not being eaten by baby-rampire Susan; and that probably only happens because Harry intervenes in time.

However that didn't happen, I think you are confusing the end of Grave Peril with Changes.. Susan only becomes a full feeding baby vampire in Changes and we know what happened there, Justine wasn't at C.I. In Grave Peril Susan is half turned, but she didn't feed, now they may not have gotten to Justine yet, but Mavra was also there and chose some "take out" when she left, those poor kids were also unturned.  So perhaps Justine got lucky or she wasn't messed with because she was already possessed by Nemesis..

)  Justine survives fatal feeding from Thomas

Again, my point, how did she survive?  Oh maybe she is possessed by Nemesis..

4)  Lara takes Justine under her wing instead of setting her up somewhere quietly out of the way

Not so odd, Lara loves her brother and is grateful and knows how he feels about her. Either way it embeds Justine further and makes her even more legit, best cover yet.

If any one of those things doesn't go exactly right, Nemesis loses out on its investment of resources in the Justine plant.  Nemesis would have had to predict all of those unpredictable outcomes years in advance.  If it could do that, Nemesis should have ended reality centuries ago.

Nemesis has time, this isn't the only place that Nemesis is, it is a critical place, things don't always go exactly right, just look at how Harry's life has gone, it is full of "what ifs" and "but fors"  Nemesis isn't always successful but that doesn't stop it.

[Second Aristh]

Um, black sheep, a little crazy?  Sounds a bit like Maeve doesn't it?  Hmmm... Target, the brother of a star born who defeated He Who Walks Behind at sixteen...  I'd say perfect positioning.

Maeve is several orders of magnitude more important than Justine, and if your goal is to get a handle on Harry originally from before BR, his brother's mortal girlfriend is not a good target.  Might as well get Harry's dentist. 

No, she wasn't random, I'd have to go back and read, I seem to remember she was selected kine to feed the family, I seem to remember Lord Raith chose her for him.

Thomas met Justine at Zero.  A citation would be nice here.

Why?  Yes, that is what she ended up as, but what she did, she didn't need to be secretary.  All she had to do was become the lover of Thomas, and then get herself pregnant, she then had all the leverage she needed to get him to upset the apple cart.

Without the rest of her connections, she blackmails Thomas, he gets disavowed and executed.  All that work over the course of years for no payoff.  It's not worth the effort for Nemesis without Justine's other connections.  Nemesis couldn't have predicted that Justine would get all those connections before BR, hence infection post-BR.

It may appear random, but not really, as a male, Raith saw his son as a threat.. The choice was a bit more complicated than merely random.

Papa Raith had taken care of several sons before Thomas and probably planned on taking care of several more in the coming centuries.  Nemesis doesn't need to be involved for that.

However that didn't happen, I think you are confusing the end of Grave Peril with Changes.. Susan only becomes a full feeding baby vampire in Changes and we know what happened there, Justine wasn't at C.I.

I'm not getting GP confused with Changes.  Check out the end of GP again. 
Bianca locks Justine in the larder with half-turned Susan.  Until Harry showed up, it was obvious that Justine was intended to finish her turning.  Huge chance that the effort of infecting Justine before BR is all wasted.

In Grave Peril Susan is half turned, but she didn't feed, now they may not have gotten to Justine yet, but Mavra was also there and chose some "take out" when she left, those poor kids were also unturned.  So perhaps Justine got lucky or she wasn't messed with because she was already possessed by Nemesis..Again, my point, how did she survive?  Oh maybe she is possessed by Nemesis..

Or maybe it was completely unpredictable luck that Harry managed to save her against all odds.  Other rampires had already started feeding on Justine before she got locked in with Susan.  Justine was set up to die that night from Susan's first feeding. 

Not so odd, Lara loves her brother and is grateful and knows how he feels about her. Either way it embeds Justine further and makes her even more legit, best cover yet.

You've got a 50/50 shot that Lara buys her a country house to stay in far away from WC politics.  That's a 50/50 shot that half the benefit of taking her is wiped away and Nemesis wasted years of work recruiting a nobody.

Nemesis has time, this isn't the only place that Nemesis is, it is a critical place, things don't always go exactly right, just look at how Harry's life has gone, it is full of "what ifs" and "but fors"  Nemesis isn't always successful but that doesn't stop it.

Exactly, the world is difficult to predict.  Nemesis plays the odds and spends its effort to acquire well-placed agents most likely to be able to help its agenda.  You don't invest your power in a nobody and hope for the best that you'll get lucky.  Justine wasn't worth acquiring until after BR.

[Mira]

Exactly, the world is difficult to predict.  Nemesis plays the odds and spends its effort to acquire well-placed agents most likely to be able to help its agenda.  You don't invest your power in a nobody and hope for the best that you'll get lucky.  Justine wasn't worth acquiring until after BR.

She became worth it the moment she became kine for the immediate Raith family..  Big clue here, she's insane, but feeding on her makes her sane?

Maeve is several orders of magnitude more important than Justine, and if your goal is to get a handle on Harry originally from before BR, his brother's mortal girlfriend is not a good target.  Might as well get Harry's dentist. 

But Maeve was infected, not possessed apparently.. As far as that goes, Maeve never had a "handle" as you call it on Harry, but Thomas did as of Grave Peril.

Without the rest of her connections, she blackmails Thomas, he gets disavowed and executed.  All that work over the course of years for no payoff.  It's not worth the effort for Nemesis without Justine's other connections.  Nemesis couldn't have predicted that Justine would get all those connections before BR, hence infection post-BR.

Nemesis has the time...  All that time it has someone on the inside, watching.. Hence the name HE WHO WALKS BESIDE, that is someone that goes along, they don't interfere they are just there watching and taking in information.

I'm not getting GP confused with Changes.  Check out the end of GP again.
Bianca locks Justine in the larder with half-turned Susan.  Until Harry showed up, it was obvious that Justine was intended to finish her turning.  Huge chance that the effort of infecting Justine before BR is all wasted.

Or because Justine was already possessed, Susan couldn't have fed on her if she wanted to.

You've got a 50/50 shot that Lara buys her a country house to stay in far away from WC politics.  That's a 50/50 shot that half the benefit of taking her is wiped away and Nemesis wasted years of work recruiting a nobody.

That isn't Lara's style.

Papa Raith had taken care of several sons before Thomas and probably planned on taking care of several more in the coming centuries.  Nemesis doesn't need to be involved for that.

Yes, but that was before Margaret's curse, Papa Raith isn't the man he used to be.  He wasn't going to use Nemesis to take out Thomas, but use Thomas by way of Justine..