Author Topic: More foreshadowing?  (Read 8074 times)

Offline psuedonym

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More foreshadowing?
« on: August 04, 2021, 12:23:26 AM »
Mollys multi colored hair before becoming the winter lady. Maeve had multicolored hair and Mabs nails and jewelry often go multicolored and opalescent, could molly's hair be foreshadowing or does Jim just think it cool?

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2021, 12:55:54 AM »
I think Mab and Maeve's colors are all winter colors, aren't they? And Molly's were originally full rainbow, I believe.

Ironically or otherwise, Molly has been Lady for a couple years now and she's stayed blonde the entire time.

Offline Second Aristh

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2021, 01:19:38 AM »
I mean, if you wanna see foreshadowing on Molly, just check out the mirrors representing her possible futures in her Soulgaze.  Opal coloring is traditionally Winter-y in the DV.  For early Molly hair dyes, I think it was just a punk aesthetic instead of specific foreshadowing.

Edit:   I wonder if opals are significant beyond looking kinda ice-like?  It wouldn't surprise me that the Winter coloring scheme had a nice dnd reference somewhere buried in there or something similar.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2021, 02:18:06 AM by Second Aristh »
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Offline LostInTime

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2021, 12:58:41 PM »
My head canon is that in Molly's soulgaze mirrors we saw all the phases that Molly's life will go through.
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Offline Mira

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2021, 07:39:00 PM »
My head canon is that in Molly's soulgaze mirrors we saw all the phases that Molly's life will go through.

  I line comes into my head about the Fae and "first born children,"  in reference to Molly.  I think it was in "Proven Guilty," but I could be wrong about that or the line all together, frankly I cannot remember, but if it exists it is a huge foreshadowing.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2021, 10:20:46 PM »
  I line comes into my head about the Fae and "first born children,"  in reference to Molly.  I think it was in "Proven Guilty," but I could be wrong about that or the line all together, frankly I cannot remember, but if it exists it is a huge foreshadowing.
Lea mentioned an interest in Michael's firstborn in Grave Peril.

Quote
   "You have children, do you not?” She shivered
again and said, “Mortal children are so sweet. And
can be bent and shaped in so many, many ways.
Your eldest daughter, I think, would—”

Offline Mira

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2021, 10:35:46 PM »
Lea mentioned an interest in Michael's firstborn in Grave Peril.

Thanks, I knew it was mentioned, well, if that isn't foreshadowing I don't what is.  What further reinforces it is later in Ghost Story, Lea becomes "Auntie Lea" to complete Molly's training. And yup, she shaped her alright.. And once again Grave Peril proves itself to be one of the key books in the whole series as far as foreshadowing goes.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2021, 10:38:59 PM by Mira »

Offline Second Aristh

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2021, 01:17:01 AM »
Thanks, I knew it was mentioned, well, if that isn't foreshadowing I don't what is.  What further reinforces it is later in Ghost Story, Lea becomes "Auntie Lea" to complete Molly's training. And yup, she shaped her alright.. And once again Grave Peril proves itself to be one of the key books in the whole series as far as foreshadowing goes.
Agreed, GP was the finale of Act 1 of the Dresden Files.
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Offline bigdangmoose

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2021, 04:07:36 PM »
Thanks, I knew it was mentioned, well, if that isn't foreshadowing I don't what is.  What further reinforces it is later in Ghost Story, Lea becomes "Auntie Lea" to complete Molly's training. And yup, she shaped her alright.. And once again Grave Peril proves itself to be one of the key books in the whole series as far as foreshadowing goes.

Problem with this is that, unless Jim was talking in his misdirection talk, I remember him saying that none of the fae knew about Molly in GP. I've heard quite a few people say the same thing that Lea knew of Molly back then. So did Jim change the back story?

My head canon is that in Molly's soulgaze mirrors we saw all the phases that Molly's life will go through.

Seen this idea float around here before and I can see this being the case. Jim has said that Harry is an unreliable narrator. So this can be a case that Harry got the soul gaze wrong.
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Offline Mira

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2021, 05:21:39 PM »
Quote
Problem with this is that, unless Jim was talking in his misdirection talk, I remember him saying that none of the fae knew about Molly in GP. I've heard quite a few people say the same thing that Lea knew of Molly back then. So did Jim change the back story?

There are things/ideas that he has changed or misdirected from the early books.  Read the first description Harry gives of that fateful day when Justin tried to bind him to his will in Summer Knight.  It has changed a lot over several books. 

Back to the point about Molly, perhaps not by name did Lea know her, but let's read again. From
Grave Peril;

Quote
"You have children, do you not?” She shivered
again and said, “Mortal children are so sweet. And
can be bent and shaped in so many, many ways.
Your eldest daughter, I think, would—”

She didn't have to know the name, just she knows Michael has an eldest daughter..

Quote
Seen this idea float around here before and I can see this being the case. Jim has said that Harry is an unreliable narrator. So this can be a case that Harry got the soul gaze wrong.

A soul gaze only takes a snap shot of that person in that point of time, and perhaps a view of possible futures... But the future is always in motion so things change, so you cannot say that Harry got the soul gaze wrong.. He saw several possible futures for her in Proven Guilty
1] Molly looking as though she were strung out on hard drugs with a "fey light" in her eyes.
Just checked the dictionary and according to it, "fey" means
Quote
giving an impression of vague unworldliness.
That kind of fits with a possible future Winter Lady gig don't you think? 
2] Smiling, happy, older, a little plump surrounded by children..
If she decides to take her mother's route, that could very well be her future, there is no
reason to believe that Molly wouldn't make a good wife and mother. 
3] Wearing a grey Warden's cloak, her face scared by battles yet to be fought.
Not unlike perhaps what Eb might have seen in his soul gaze of sixteen year old Harry.  Harry
and Molly had that in common,  possible warlock, but with guidance a brave Warden for the White
Council.
4] Basically a happy young woman, but perhaps a bit more secure..
5] At a desk working...
Not much to go on there, though I guess if you want take a real leap, future Winter Lady doing her job..
6]  The last one looked like Molly, but wasn't, but someone all together evil;
Quote
But the eyes gave it away.  They were flat as a reptile's, empty.  She wore all black, including a black collar, and her hair had been died to match. Though she looked like Molly, like a human being, she was neither. She had become something else entirely, something, very, very bad.

The obvious is if she went full warlock with her mind powers, Molly would be a powerful evil force to recon with.  But another thought hit me as I was copying the quote out of the book.  Could this be the reason why Mab ordered Harry to kill Molly if something happened to her?  Mab said that if Molly became Queen it would be unsettling, not just for the Court, but for everyone.  Could the above be the future Molly that Mab saw if she became Queen prematurely?  Mab wants a strong Queen to succeed her, but I doubt she wants an evil Queen that's into mind control.  Notice that Harry says this version of Molly isn't human, but she looks human, well that defines what Mab is, doesn't it?

Then he comes away with the impression that Molly is a person of power.. That evil does hang over her, but it hadn't gained dominance.. With guidance she could turn out okay.. So was Harry wrong?  So far I'd say no.


Offline Second Aristh

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2021, 05:50:00 PM »
A soul gaze only takes a snap shot of that person in that point of time, and perhaps a view of possible futures... But the future is always in motion so things change, so you cannot say that Harry got the soul gaze wrong.. He saw several possible futures for her in Proven Guilty
1] Molly looking as though she were strung out on hard drugs with a "fey light" in her eyes.
Just checked the dictionary and according to it, "fey" means That kind of fits with a possible future Winter Lady gig don't you think? 
2] Smiling, happy, older, a little plump surrounded by children..
If she decides to take her mother's route, that could very well be her future, there is no
reason to believe that Molly wouldn't make a good wife and mother. 
3] Wearing a grey Warden's cloak, her face scared by battles yet to be fought.
Not unlike perhaps what Eb might have seen in his soul gaze of sixteen year old Harry.  Harry
and Molly had that in common,  possible warlock, but with guidance a brave Warden for the White
Council.
4] Basically a happy young woman, but perhaps a bit more secure..
5] At a desk working...
Not much to go on there, though I guess if you want take a real leap, future Winter Lady doing her job..
6]  The last one looked like Molly, but wasn't, but someone all together evil;
The obvious is if she went full warlock with her mind powers, Molly would be a powerful evil force to recon with.  But another thought hit me as I was copying the quote out of the book.  Could this be the reason why Mab ordered Harry to kill Molly if something happened to her?  Mab said that if Molly became Queen it would be unsettling, not just for the Court, but for everyone.  Could the above be the future Molly that Mab saw if she became Queen prematurely?  Mab wants a strong Queen to succeed her, but I doubt she wants an evil Queen that's into mind control.  Notice that Harry says this version of Molly isn't human, but she looks human, well that defines what Mab is, doesn't it?

Then he comes away with the impression that Molly is a person of power.. That evil does hang over her, but it hadn't gained dominance.. With guidance she could turn out okay.. So was Harry wrong?  So far I'd say no.
For the possible futures, I interpret them as
1]  Winter Lady Molly
2]  Molly that set aside magic
3]  Warden Molly
4]  ? ? ?
5]  ? ? ?
6]  Denarian Molly
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Offline Mira

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2021, 06:16:55 PM »
Quote
Denarian Molly

Hadn't thought of that one, but I don't see it, as a "host" she'd still be human... What Harry sees isn't, though she still looks like Molly.

Offline Second Aristh

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2021, 06:21:06 PM »
Hadn't thought of that one, but I don't see it, as a "host" she'd still be human... What Harry sees isn't, though she still looks like Molly.
Human, but the Denarian form metaphorically peeking through since it's a soulgaze.  There was a WoJ or a book quote somewhere about the Denarians loving to acquire a family member for one of the Knights of the Cross.

Denarian Dresden was also one of the options Jim considered instead of Winter Knight Harry in Changes, so it makes sense as far as a possibility for Molly from way back then.
We shall not fail or falter, we shall not weaken or tire...Give us the tools, and we will finish the job.--Winston Churchill

Offline Mira

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2021, 08:52:53 PM »
Human, but the Denarian form metaphorically peeking through since it's a soulgaze.  There was a WoJ or a book quote somewhere about the Denarians loving to acquire a family member for one of the Knights of the Cross.

Denarian Dresden was also one of the options Jim considered instead of Winter Knight Harry in Changes, so it makes sense as far as a possibility for Molly from way back then.

It must be a WOJ because I don't remember it as a book quote.  Granted I've forgotten a lot ::), but I think I'd remember that one.  Not saying you're wrong, but considering where Molly is now, and what has happened to Mab over the centuries, I'm more inclined to think it is the Winter Queen gig.  Specially the reason Mab gave for wanting her dead instead of Queen at this point.. "Unsettling," which I realize can mean almost anything, but vague as her comment was, it doesn't sound good.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: More foreshadowing?
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2021, 08:55:37 PM »
Mollys multi colored hair before becoming the winter lady. Maeve had multicolored hair and Mabs nails and jewelry often go multicolored and opalescent, could molly's hair be foreshadowing or does Jim just think it cool?
in another detail I've noticed, Maeves look actually changes to match changes Molly makes. Can't recall exactly what, but iirc after Molly gets her piercings Maeve gets the same one.