Revisit this. Grey Counsel

[Yuillegan]

• Harry Dresden
• Eb McCoy
• Donar Vadderung
• Elder Gruff
• River Shoulders
• Martha Liberty
• Carlos Ramirez
• Klaus the Toymaker
• Ivy the Archive
• Pinga
• Māui
• Mami Wata
• Sun Wukong the Monkey King

Likely not there

• Listens-to-Winds - was sick with Arianna's curse.
• Luccio - too weak and likely locked/occupied by Cristos.
• Gatekeeper - likely at the Gates since Mab and Lea were both preoccupied with Harry.
• Wild Bill & Yoshimo - likely locked up.
• Chandler - likely busy with the issues at headquarters.
• Elaine - Not in the inner circle.
• Cristos - nobody trusts him.
• Merlin, Ancient Mai - likely know of the GC, but wouldn't be members for reasons.

River Shoulders is a tad big, no? I get he can shapeshift but why bother? Can't rule him out altogether but I feel if he was going to fight he would have been in his Bigfoot guise. That's how he normally does it.

I can't see Ramirez being on the team. Eb picked the team and he doesn't seem all that close to him. He also would have many older, less brash and vulnerable, and more experienced wizards to choose from. Also, Ramirez has really bought in to the White Council ethos. He's starting to drink the Kool-Aid (although...he might be right according to Jim). So I think he would be very conflicted if not outright sell out the Grey Council. Also, wasn't he arrested by Cristos?

Can't say I agree with the Archive either. Molly felt Vadderung's presence as he was the most powerful being there, I am sure Molly would have mentioned if she felt a similarly powerful being. Not that Ivy is as powerful, but she's well up there. She also would have been a tad short I think around that time, she might have stood out. Not to mention, the Archive is neutral. She quite specifically didn't choose sides between the White Council and the Red Court. I am not even sure she could have participated, considering how much it cost her to give Harry information in that book.

Your last four options (Pinga, Maui, Mama Wata and Sun Wukong) are interesting choices. Why those four in particular, out of interest?

LtW could have recovered from his illness in time for the fight...but that's an important point. He was sick right after Arianna's visit, so it's entirely possible he isn't on it.

Luccio - could have recovered but same issue. Good pick up.

GK - yep, could have been at the Gates. Also could not have been. AFAIK there wasn't an attack at that time...and Mab could have been at the Gates herself. She only went to Tir Na Nog briefly.

WB & Y - similar issues to Ramirez

Chandler - same as above, plus almost never leaves the SC.

Merlin - doesn't need a GC because he has a Council already. Same for Cristos in some ways.

Ancient Mai - not a combat wizard.

I could be wrong because I haven't touched up on the earlier books in a while but I'm pretty sure it's Winter who fights at the Gates, and Rashid is there to scan the injured who come through, for Nemesis is my guess.  When he faced off against the vampires it was because they were ambushed, not because he was actively looking for combat from what I remember.  Being dangerous doesn't just revolve around what you can do under a combat situation.  Mike Tyson might be way more dangerous in a physical confrontation than a scientist, but a scientist who can create bioweapons is way more dangerous.

I'm not saying Rashid isn't capable of combat magic.  He's got centuries of experience, and can probably do all kinds of crazy stuff.  That said there is a difference between combat magic, and other forms of magic.  The reason being that in a combat situation there is a measure of athleticism involved.  You have to be quick, agile, and have endurance.  I'm sure Rashid is quite capable, but he doesn't strike me as the type who'd fare well in a prolonged conflict where his physical body would be placed under quite a lot of stress.  His magic might be able to hold up, but his body might not. 

I don't remember for sure but I'm almost sure that at some point Jim said that Rashid uses as little magic as possible.  He didn't go into detail, or explain why though. 

Rashid is, by far, the most dangerous of the Senior Council. Which is not the same thing as most powerful. Smiley - Jim....  In my opinion this has less to do with combat magic, or super powerful magic but probably has more to do with his knowledge, and possibly a gift for messing with time.  I mean imagine someone who is able to alter time, alter the outcome of a fight...  That is serious power right there. 

I can't really see Rashid not getting into the fighting now and again if not all the time the battles are happening. But true enough, we don't have information either way. We'll have to wait for more information.

You're right about the idea behind dangerous. But then again, Jim has said his definition of power and Harry's definition are quite different. So Rashid doesn't have to be the most powerful to still be horribly dangerous in combat. Still though, he might be more of an assassin than a brawler or whatever.

You could be right about his body. But then again, Ebenezar doesn't seem to worried and he's about 300 years old. So it's a tricky one. Magic solves a lot of those issues too.

That's an interesting quote from Jim about Rashid - I'd love it if you know the source? No worries if not I will hunt for it. It's just a really intriguing statement.

Oh, I totally agree that part of what makes Rashid so dangerous is his ability to know the future. Hard to beat someone like that. But not impossible, clearly. Although I'd argue that knowing the future IS super powerful magic in some ways. Maybe not in terms of magical energy (although who knows) but it grants him knowledge that few mortals ever possess. Means he has the jump on a lot of situations. But power has purpose, so I'd imagine that eye seeing the future is important to beating the Outsiders. Not just Nemesis I'd imagine. Can Rashid alter time? Anymore than the rest of us with our choices? He has more informed choices but he still only would alter them the same way everyone else does, by choosing options. Unless you're saying he time-travels back and forward...but wouldn't that be breaking the Laws? I believe only one wizard has that privilege.

[Griffyn612]

River Shoulders is a tad big, no? I get he can shapeshift but why bother? Can't rule him out altogether but I feel if he was going to fight he would have been in his Bigfoot guise. That's how he normally does it.

I can't see Ramirez being on the team. Eb picked the team and he doesn't seem all that close to him. He also would have many older, less brash and vulnerable, and more experienced wizards to choose from. Also, Ramirez has really bought in to the White Council ethos. He's starting to drink the Kool-Aid (although...he might be right according to Jim). So I think he would be very conflicted if not outright sell out the Grey Council. Also, wasn't he arrested by Cristos?

Can't say I agree with the Archive either. Molly felt Vadderung's presence as he was the most powerful being there, I am sure Molly would have mentioned if she felt a similarly powerful being. Not that Ivy is as powerful, but she's well up there. She also would have been a tad short I think around that time, she might have stood out. Not to mention, the Archive is neutral. She quite specifically didn't choose sides between the White Council and the Red Court. I am not even sure she could have participated, considering how much it cost her to give Harry information in that book.

Your last four options (Pinga, Maui, Mama Wata and Sun Wukong) are interesting choices. Why those four in particular, out of interest?

Regrading River, he's large, but in a cloak at a distance while purposefully concealing all of their identities, I think it could be fine.

Regarding Carlos, he's the only one that got away from Cristos, per Chandler. Harry also previously vouched for Carlos, and his Council turn didn't start until after Changes. And he was injured at some point even before the Molly story, and it being in action unseen at CI makes sense.

Regrading Ivy, again, it's a matter of acting in secret, so hiding her identity would be required. And Ivy is neutral for the Accords, but not if the Reds were deemed to be in violation. But her involvement does seem like a stretch, even to me.

Regarding the four unknowns, I just wanted to list some possibilities that could be different than the usual western suspects. Eb seems like the type to collect acquaintances with powerful beings, and those seem like the kind that would help.

There are others I'd like to see as well, but they don't fit as well.

[Second Aristh]

As far as the GC goes, I'd say any member has to satisfy both of the following requirements:
1)  Eb has to know them well enough to say that they are trustworthy to root out the BC with him
2)  They have to be a magic user of some sort (all 13 carried staff-ish tools in CI)

I've always been a fan of Langtry being on the list.  Sure, Langtry doesn't like Eb personally, but he's a strong wizard that Eb knows well enough that he can walk Harry through his three step strategies.  Plus, being on the GC gives him more freedom to do things than he can in his position as Merlin.  Especially when he's worried about BC attention.

[Griffyn612]

As far as the GC goes, I'd say any member has to satisfy both of the following requirements:
1)  Eb has to know them well enough to say that they are trustworthy to root out the BC with him
2)  They have to be a magic user of some sort (all 13 carried staff-ish tools in CI)

I've always been a fan of Langtry being on the list.  Sure, Langtry doesn't like Eb personally, but he's a strong wizard that Eb knows well enough that he can walk Harry through his three step strategies.  Plus, being on the GC gives him more freedom to do things than he can in his position as Merlin.  Especially when he's worried about BC attention.

I liked him for it for a while, but the more I look at it, the more it doesn't fit. Yes, he wants to root out the Black Council. But to risk being caught with a renegade group to do it seems unlike him.

And if it got out that the Merlin was violating the rules, it'd be more than just the end of his career. It'd jeopardy the council itself.

I see him as knowing about the GC, if not all the members. And I see him hoping they succeed, and even pointing them (like Harry) in the right direction if he needs to. But being an actual member? Not so much.

[Second Aristh]

I liked him for it for a while, but the more I look at it, the more it doesn't fit. Yes, he wants to root out the Black Council. But to risk being caught with a renegade group to do it seems unlike him.

And if it got out that the Merlin was violating the rules, it'd be more than just the end of his career. It'd jeopardy the council itself.

I see him as knowing about the GC, if not all the members. And I see him hoping they succeed, and even pointing them (like Harry) in the right direction if he needs to. But being an actual member? Not so much.

Politically speaking, Langtry doesn't strike me as opposed to some risk when he has some levers to help control it.  That was my impression in TC and Changes anyway.  Plus the BC existing jeopardizes the WC anyway.  It's a worthwhile risk to neutralize them. 

[Yuillegan]

Regrading River, he's large, but in a cloak at a distance while purposefully concealing all of their identities, I think it could be fine.

Regarding Carlos, he's the only one that got away from Cristos, per Chandler. Harry also previously vouched for Carlos, and his Council turn didn't start until after Changes. And he was injured at some point even before the Molly story, and it being in action unseen at CI makes sense.

Regrading Ivy, again, it's a matter of acting in secret, so hiding her identity would be required. And Ivy is neutral for the Accords, but not if the Reds were deemed to be in violation. But her involvement does seem like a stretch, even to me.

Regarding the four unknowns, I just wanted to list some possibilities that could be different than the usual western suspects. Eb seems like the type to collect acquaintances with powerful beings, and those seem like the kind that would help.

There are others I'd like to see as well, but they don't fit as well.

I guess it's possible with River, even his natural form. He is 9ft tall though which would have made him the largest being there (unless there were a few Ick's around). I more think it's likely he will join later, when LtW dies. But it's possible.

I mean, when I read Changes I assumed his injuries were from fighting Cristos' men. My mistake, I thought he was arrested but as you say he did escape. I just wonder why Eb would pick a young warden he doesn't know well, rather than an old friend. Maybe someone he's known for decades or more. Also, strange that Carlos never mentioned it to Harry in later interactions? Not sure I'm convinced on him.

The four beings you chose are all allies of humanity so are good choices. Certainly out of left field but I like it!

Hopefully we will see more of the Grey Council soon.

As far as the GC goes, I'd say any member has to satisfy both of the following requirements:
1)  Eb has to know them well enough to say that they are trustworthy to root out the BC with him
2)  They have to be a magic user of some sort (all 13 carried staff-ish tools in CI)

I've always been a fan of Langtry being on the list.  Sure, Langtry doesn't like Eb personally, but he's a strong wizard that Eb knows well enough that he can walk Harry through his three step strategies.  Plus, being on the GC gives him more freedom to do things than he can in his position as Merlin.  Especially when he's worried about BC attention.

Agree with the requirements.

Langtry just has too many issues, I feel. He could establish his own team for investigations, why make such a clandestine group, that isn't legal? Also, I doubt he would ever let Eb pick the team. He's a control freak. He wouldn't bow to Ebenezar's leadership.

I could see him actually authorizing it in a black ops sort of way. Like if you get caught you're on your own type of deal. Although honestly, how he could dictate to Vadderung is beyond me.

[Second Aristh]

Agree with the requirements.

Langtry just has too many issues, I feel. He could establish his own team for investigations, why make such a clandestine group, that isn't legal? Also, I doubt he would ever let Eb pick the team. He's a control freak. He wouldn't bow to Ebenezar's leadership.

I could see him actually authorizing it in a black ops sort of way. Like if you get caught you're on your own type of deal. Although honestly, how he could dictate to Vadderung is beyond me.

Could he really establish a clandestine group, though?  He's the Merlin, but I'd imagine its hard for him to really do things without someone getting a peek into it.  I think Eb could definitely start one much more easily.  Legal/illegal is something that can be handled post-discovery if need be.

Overall, I think Eb/Langtry is a very similar relationship to Harry/Morgan.  Would Morgan want Harry around running something important?  Prob not, but there he was knocking on Harry's door in TC when big players were moving.  Morgan trusted his knowledge of Harry enough to turn to him when official hands were tied.  I think Langtry would make the same calculation for Eb.

[Yuillegan]

Could he really establish a clandestine group, though?  He's the Merlin, but I'd imagine its hard for him to really do things without someone getting a peek into it.  I think Eb could definitely start one much more easily.  Legal/illegal is something that can be handled post-discovery if need be.

Overall, I think Eb/Langtry is a very similar relationship to Harry/Morgan.  Would Morgan want Harry around running something important?  Prob not, but there he was knocking on Harry's door in TC when big players were moving.  Morgan trusted his knowledge of Harry enough to turn to him when official hands were tied.  I think Langtry would make the same calculation for Eb.

Why not? He could establish the White Council version of internal affairs. He is the leader, he has that kind of authority. He might need a Senior Council vote, but if he suspected any of them he probably could just do it themselves. Like Cops, you swear allegiance to the Country but that manifests in the highest authority. I agree it's probably harder in many ways, and probably goes against his mindset. But it's certainly more likely to do it that way than join Eb's team.

At most, he might ask Eb to do it but claim plausible deniability. They are far more hostile than Morgan and Harry.

[Second Aristh]

Why not? He could establish the White Council version of internal affairs. He is the leader, he has that kind of authority. He might need a Senior Council vote, but if he suspected any of them he probably could just do it themselves. Like Cops, you swear allegiance to the Country but that manifests in the highest authority. I agree it's probably harder in many ways, and probably goes against his mindset. But it's certainly more likely to do it that way than join Eb's team.

At most, he might ask Eb to do it but claim plausible deniability. They are far more hostile than Morgan and Harry.

Yeah, that's the problem though.  The White Council internal affairs already exists and is called the wardens.  The Merlin can't go creating a "more trustworthy" group without having to explain it and tipping off potential BC members.  Even moreso if it requires a full SC vote.

[Yuillegan]

I mean, not necessarily. The Merlin isn't equal to other Senior Council members - he's the leader. The Chairman, President, what have you. He has executive powers. He could do things the others couldn't. He might have already for all we know. Especially with emergency powers.

We know the White Council's legal system is very old fashioned and not terribly complex. We know that it isn't particularly fair and is unfairly concentrated at the top with fairly minimal checks and balances.

We also know that the Merlin is more than simply the strongest wizard (in magical terms) on the planet. He's also got the strongest political strength, the strongest political position, and he's the one who controls the White Council's financial power.

If he wanted to create some extra taskforce, he no doubt could. It would be risky, and if discovered he potentially risks a civil war, but he could do it. Not only that, but likely things would be to his advantage if he used already existing legal powers to create the task force - which he likely has. Considering what the White Council normally does, even if the Merlin were discovered before being ready, all he would have to do is convince them to go after a particular target (like Ebenezar or Christos) and he would divert the attention off of himself. More than likely the stalwarts on the Senior Council would side with him just to prevent a civil war, and throw one of their number (who might challenge it) to the wolves. Especially as by calling him out, it could potentially give the Merlin ammunition to say "Hey, they don't want me investigating because they're the bad guy!".

They threw Morgan to the wolves without blinking an eye to save the Council. The Merlin will always do what he thinks is necessary after all. Assuming they were not suspected of being black council, the Merlin would have the votes of Mai and Rashid easily. Then he only really needs to convince either Christos, Eb, Liberty, or Listens-to-Wind. LtW made it clear he would ruthlessly protect the Council if necessary so it wouldn't surprise me if he was in favor of it - especially if he wasn't on the Grey Council.

Assuming Christos didn't challenge the Merlin, he would almost certainly vote for an internal affairs taskforce whether he was black council or not. If he's black council, he gets to destabilise the Council further and could use it to rid himself of enemies. If he isn't, he would use it to strengthen his personal position. If he challenged the Merlin about it, he almost certainly would be labelled black council and executed - which would justify to the others the necessity for such a taskforce. I can't see the other SC members siding with him to take out the Merlin even if he was right about a taskforce being illegal and/or unethical - especially if they really did think he was black council, which some of them suspect, and they didn't appreciate him bullying his way onto the SC in the first place.

[Second Aristh]

I mean, not necessarily. The Merlin isn't equal to other Senior Council members - he's the leader. The Chairman, President, what have you. He has executive powers. He could do things the others couldn't. He might have already for all we know. Especially with emergency powers.

We know the White Council's legal system is very old fashioned and not terribly complex. We know that it isn't particularly fair and is unfairly concentrated at the top with fairly minimal checks and balances.

We also know that the Merlin is more than simply the strongest wizard (in magical terms) on the planet. He's also got the strongest political strength, the strongest political position, and he's the one who controls the White Council's financial power.

If he wanted to create some extra taskforce, he no doubt could. It would be risky, and if discovered he potentially risks a civil war, but he could do it. Not only that, but likely things would be to his advantage if he used already existing legal powers to create the task force - which he likely has. Considering what the White Council normally does, even if the Merlin were discovered before being ready, all he would have to do is convince them to go after a particular target (like Ebenezar or Christos) and he would divert the attention off of himself. More than likely the stalwarts on the Senior Council would side with him just to prevent a civil war, and throw one of their number (who might challenge it) to the wolves. Especially as by calling him out, it could potentially give the Merlin ammunition to say "Hey, they don't want me investigating because they're the bad guy!".

They threw Morgan to the wolves without blinking an eye to save the Council. The Merlin will always do what he thinks is necessary after all. Assuming they were not suspected of being black council, the Merlin would have the votes of Mai and Rashid easily. Then he only really needs to convince either Christos, Eb, Liberty, or Listens-to-Wind. LtW made it clear he would ruthlessly protect the Council if necessary so it wouldn't surprise me if he was in favor of it - especially if he wasn't on the Grey Council.

Assuming Christos didn't challenge the Merlin, he would almost certainly vote for an internal affairs taskforce whether he was black council or not. If he's black council, he gets to destabilise the Council further and could use it to rid himself of enemies. If he isn't, he would use it to strengthen his personal position. If he challenged the Merlin about it, he almost certainly would be labelled black council and executed - which would justify to the others the necessity for such a taskforce. I can't see the other SC members siding with him to take out the Merlin even if he was right about a taskforce being illegal and/or unethical - especially if they really did think he was black council, which some of them suspect, and they didn't appreciate him bullying his way onto the SC in the first place.

Legally, the Merlin no doubt does have the power to make a group with the mission of the GC.  I just don't think he has the ability to do it quietly.  Official power is loud in a bureaucracy.  Not having the secrecy defeats the mission before it starts, though.

[Yuillegan]

Legally, the Merlin no doubt does have the power to make a group with the mission of the GC.  I just don't think he has the ability to do it quietly.  Official power is loud in a bureaucracy.  Not having the secrecy defeats the mission before it starts, though.

Is it that uncommon for leaders to authorize such things? Especially in organisations with minimal checks? It's harder in a western government but even they have some powers in this regard. Considering the White Council rules are more typical of organisations several hundred years ago...it's doesn't beggar belief the Merlin has that sort of power.

Quietly doing it is a different matter because you also have to factor in that each one of the Senior Council is watching the rest and has their own agents and factions within the Council at large, including the Wardens. But it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the Merlin has a loyal cadre of Wardens himself and Langtry surely would have dealt with tight operational security in his long life. If he was only recruiting a handful of team members like Ebenezar it's less likely to be noticed.

Truth be told though, so far the Merlin has openly expressed his disbelief in a Black Council. I don't think he's stupid which only leaves corrupted or wilfully ignorant. I'd say it's the latter. Unless he's lying of course...but based on the hard evidence we can only assume he's telling the truth i.e. we haven't caught him in a lie yet.