Author Topic: I wonder how long Raith has had his protection.  (Read 4404 times)

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: I wonder how long Raith has had his protection.
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2021, 10:32:13 PM »
That...makes a lot of sense. I really like it. I have no idea if Jim will do that but I like it.

Only snag is that magic seems totally negated on Lord Raith, whereas the Before and Behind are still a little vulnerable to magic. I am not sure why Beside's central host body (Lord Raith in your theory) would be more protected than the others.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: I wonder how long Raith has had his protection.
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2021, 10:46:00 PM »
I'm in the camp that says Raith made a deal with Beside for protection at a very young age, which helped him ascend to power centuries ago.

I think Maggie's curse worked because it targeted his Wamp demon and not him. I'm guessing he made the deal for protection for himself, and the demon is separate enough that it wasn't included in the umbrella because of some technicality.
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Offline Griffyn612

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Re: I wonder how long Raith has had his protection.
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2021, 11:47:21 PM »
That...makes a lot of sense. I really like it. I have no idea if Jim will do that but I like it.

Only snag is that magic seems totally negated on Lord Raith, whereas the Before and Behind are still a little vulnerable to magic. I am not sure why Beside's central host body (Lord Raith in your theory) would be more protected than the others.
I can speculate that more effort went into Raith's protection than normal host bodies, simply because of the importance of having that anchor in reality. If another Before, Beside, or Behind demon is banished, it's no big deal, because Raith can summon them back. He's the King to protect at all costs, so they put a little extra juice into it.

As for Harry's power failing against him in Blood Rites, it could be that the protection lies beyond the mortal dimension, and Harry's power never hit the moving parts; it just hit the void that shunts the magic off to wherever it won't harm Raith.

But it could also be due to the inconsistency of Harry's starborn power. He killed Behind as a teenager without knowing he couldn't; he couldn't shake off Before's whammy in Blood Rites on his own, but he could after he was told he could and with Lash's help; he hit Before with fire in Mac's bar and Before deflected most of arguably the most powerful shot we've seen Harry throw at that point; Harry hits Sith with power that just sends him flying; then he one-shots Before with a gun and power to the head, destroying the host body and sending Before running while screaming in agony.

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Offline Mira

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Re: I wonder how long Raith has had his protection.
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2021, 12:14:20 AM »
Quote
As for Harry's power failing against him in Blood Rites, it could be that the protection lies beyond the mortal dimension, and Harry's power never hit the moving parts; it just hit the void that shunts the magic off to wherever it won't harm Raith.

Yeah, I am inclined to think there is a secret to it, Margaret figured out part of it.  When he did try to kill Raith, Harry had no clue what he is nor half the skills he has now.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: I wonder how long Raith has had his protection.
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2021, 02:27:55 AM »
I can speculate that more effort went into Raith's protection than normal host bodies, simply because of the importance of having that anchor in reality. If another Before, Beside, or Behind demon is banished, it's no big deal, because Raith can summon them back. He's the King to protect at all costs, so they put a little extra juice into it.

As for Harry's power failing against him in Blood Rites, it could be that the protection lies beyond the mortal dimension, and Harry's power never hit the moving parts; it just hit the void that shunts the magic off to wherever it won't harm Raith.

But it could also be due to the inconsistency of Harry's starborn power. He killed Behind as a teenager without knowing he couldn't; he couldn't shake off Before's whammy in Blood Rites on his own, but he could after he was told he could and with Lash's help; he hit Before with fire in Mac's bar and Before deflected most of arguably the most powerful shot we've seen Harry throw at that point; Harry hits Sith with power that just sends him flying; then he one-shots Before with a gun and power to the head, destroying the host body and sending Before running while screaming in agony.

Sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't.
Hmm. Not sure that adds up totally with Raith...unless he was the centrepiece of all their plans. Raith could be the anchor for all three Walkers. But I would assume he would be stronger. Clearly they also possess other bodies too and he shows no sign of being possessed by Before or Behind. 

Sadly I put this down to inconsistencies in the writing itself as much as in-universe reasons. Jim isn't immune to the main problem of fantasy story telling: there is always a trade-off between consistency of established in-universe rules and conventions, and the conventions of writing itself. Yes, great writers seem to get it right more often but none of them get it right all the time, and not even most of the time. It's a very difficult thing.

The in-universe reasons you gave are as good as any. There is a bit of magic feather stuff with Harry.

Also just as an aside I meant Blood Rites not Death Masks before, totally forgot that book was in there.
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Offline Griffyn612

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Re: I wonder how long Raith has had his protection.
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2021, 04:16:30 AM »
Hmm. Not sure that adds up totally with Raith...unless he was the centrepiece of all their plans. Raith could be the anchor for all three Walkers. But I would assume he would be stronger. Clearly they also possess other bodies too and he shows no sign of being possessed by Before or Behind. 

Sadly I put this down to inconsistencies in the writing itself as much as in-universe reasons. Jim isn't immune to the main problem of fantasy story telling: there is always a trade-off between consistency of established in-universe rules and conventions, and the conventions of writing itself. Yes, great writers seem to get it right more often but none of them get it right all the time, and not even most of the time. It's a very difficult thing.

The in-universe reasons you gave are as good as any. There is a bit of magic feather stuff with Harry.

Also just as an aside I meant Blood Rites not Death Masks before, totally forgot that book was in there.
I don't mean that he's possessed by all of them. I mean after spending millennia hoping mortals would summon them in ways that would give the Walkers the free rein to do what they need to do, they've suddenly got a willing partner in young Lord Rath.

Raith makes the bargain with Beside. In return, he's safer than any other Wamp, and with the knowledge and power at his disposal, he becomes King.

In return, all he had to do was allow Beside to bond part of his power to Raith (back-seat possession). Then, either with Raith's willing cooperation or by subtle unknown manipulation, Beside has Raith summon Before and Behind whenever they're banished or killed.

Suddenly the Walkers are a nightmare for the guardians of reality, who can never seem to find a way to get rid of them. They seem to be everywhere, and take on the appearance of an all-seeing, all-powerful Nemesis.

No-one ever suspects the White King, because he's a paragon of stability and order. He keeps things the way they've always been, and he doesn't rock the boat. Nemesis is known for causing chaos in its infiltration, and there's no chaos there.

Beside just rides his coattails, using him as a catspaw in the long game for centuries.

Right up until Maggie realizes his secret. Then it all falls apart. She threatens to out him, so he threatens Thomas. She agrees to keep his secret, but leaves. Then she feels a curse coming at her and suspects Raith, or wants to protect Thomas, so she uses her prepared death curse to geld him.

Now Raith can't feed, so he stops using magic that he can't replenish. He stops summoning Outsiders, and has to train mortals like DuMorne and Cowl and Madge how to do it instead.

Then Raith is made into a puppet, and there's no more summoning or training. But Beside still has him as an anchor to reality, and might have the ability to take control of him if need be. He doesn't, because once he does, the risk of discovery goes up. So he just bides his time and uses other puppets.

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: I wonder how long Raith has had his protection.
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2021, 06:46:40 AM »
Maybe but Jim made it sound like she did what she did with purpose..  Said if she had killed him, the White Court would have replaced him while she basically sandbagged them for over 30 years...  Before it happened they were growing in power (much like now that Lara has taken over), but after her curse, they stagnated.  He focused on defense instead of expansion..
They weren't just stagnating, Raith was getting paranoid and wiping out potential rivals like Madrigal's dad over those 30 years, I'd wager a lot of younger members of the court got promotions in those few decades between her death curse and Blood Rites.
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Offline Mira

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Re: I wonder how long Raith has had his protection.
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2021, 10:00:41 AM »
Quote
Sadly I put this down to inconsistencies in the writing itself as much as in-universe reasons. Jim isn't immune to the main problem of fantasy story telling: there is always a trade-off between consistency of established in-universe rules and conventions, and the conventions of writing itself. Yes, great writers seem to get it right more often but none of them get it right all the time, and not even most of the time. It's a very difficult thing.

I think that also comes with trying to write such a long series over so many years.  Yes, he has great Beta readers to keep him on track, but still it is a problem.