Marcone could probably beat Harry in a duel.

[groinkick]

Jim said that the type of wizard to beat Harry is Carlos.  Carlos is a water mage, and uses delicate magic that is difficult to do.  His type of magic could basically counter Harry's.

Well Marcone did some things that makes me question Harry's ability to beat him.  First, Marcone didn't use any Foci when casting magic.  He did it without any tools, which is the sign of a skilled magical user.  Second, Marcone used a type of teleportation, a veil, and was able to change concrete at the molecular level...  This kind of magic is most likely extremely delicate, and difficult to do.  We only saw some of his defensive magic, not his offensive abilities.  Marcone, I think, is a lot like Carlos in the sense of being able to neutralize Dresden's particular style of magic (I think he'd take Carlos at this point too)...  Throw in the fact that Fallen are way tougher than mortals and can take damage that would kill a wizard...  Marcone was unfazed by his broken neck for example, healing instantly...  Combine all of these and Dresden has a seriously dangerous enemy in Marcone.

Also a WAG...  Dresden (I think) sensed temporal energies at Arctis Tor when it was attacked with Hellfire....  I suspect it was future Marcone.  Mab made a mistake taking Leah there when she was Nemfected (Jim said she thought it was the right thing, which sounds like it wasn't)..  I think Marcone traveled back to try and get Leah out of there. 

[Griffyn612]

The theory is that Namshiel's previous host was infected, which calls everything he did into question. If so, then the choice of holding the Archive captive on the island might have been intentional to try to screw with the defenses there, since we know Beside is interested in the place.

But more to your point, if Namshiel's host was infected, or even a Beside host, then depending on the timing, he could have been responsible for the attack on Arctis Tor with hellfire.

I mean, I'm a fan of time traveling Harry doing it, but even I have to admit that the old Namshiel seems more likely than Harry or Namarcone.

[Mira]

  At the moment, it is a no brainer... Marcone couldn't beat Harry, but a Fallen Angel who has been
a wizard from the beginning of time, could..  Only thing that would save Harry at the moment is Marcone isn't used to being used by his host, so he makes mistakes. 

Also a WAG...  Dresden (I think) sensed temporal energies at Arctis Tor when it was attacked with Hellfire....  I suspect it was future Marcone.  Mab made a mistake taking Leah there when she was Nemfected (Jim said she thought it was the right thing, which sounds like it wasn't)..  I think Marcone traveled back to try and get Leah out of there. 

Could be, but I doubt it is Marcone, the time travel thing is just too easy and the type of thing that should be used very sparingly or it becomes very bad writing.

[TheCuriousFan]

Jim said that the type of wizard to beat Harry is Carlos.  Carlos is a water mage, and uses delicate magic that is difficult to do.  His type of magic could basically counter Harry's.

Well Marcone did some things that makes me question Harry's ability to beat him.  First, Marcone didn't use any Foci when casting magic.  He did it without any tools, which is the sign of a skilled magical user.  Second, Marcone used a type of teleportation, a veil, and was able to change concrete at the molecular level...  This kind of magic is most likely extremely delicate, and difficult to do.  We only saw some of his defensive magic, not his offensive abilities.  Marcone, I think, is a lot like Carlos in the sense of being able to neutralize Dresden's particular style of magic (I think he'd take Carlos at this point too)...  Throw in the fact that Fallen are way tougher than mortals and can take damage that would kill a wizard...  Marcone was unfazed by his broken neck for example, healing instantly...  Combine all of these and Dresden has a seriously dangerous enemy in Marcone.

Also a WAG...  Dresden (I think) sensed temporal energies at Arctis Tor when it was attacked with Hellfire....  I suspect it was future Marcone.  Mab made a mistake taking Leah there when she was Nemfected (Jim said she thought it was the right thing, which sounds like it wasn't)..  I think Marcone traveled back to try and get Leah out of there.

Well yeah, the last two times he went up against Harry he casually oneshot him before being taken down by a third party sucker punch.

[Yuillegan]

Well yeah, the last two times he went up against Harry he casually oneshot him before being taken down by a third party sucker punch.

I assume you mean Namshiel and his previous host? Fair enough...although past performance isn't always a reliable indicator of future outcomes. Namshiel still has to teach Marcone etc. But that being said, he is the Fallen who has displayed the most magic through his host. Which does make you wonder why not the others...it isn't like angels (fallen or no) have an issue with magic. Must be to do with who they are and how they work.

groinkick
Totally agree, in universe. By rights Marcone has already displayed enough to show he is advanced of Harry and should beat him in a duel, not including Namshiel's tricks in hi previous host.

However. The way Harry talks about Marcone with disdain and being a magic novice etc belies the above. Only one of two possible conclusions can be true. Either Harry is absurdly overconfident/in denial about Marcon's power and skill/talent etc. Which Harry normally isn't. Or Jim doesn't want Marcone to be better...but hasn't shown why that should be true, yet Harry will somehow "prove" Marcone is the lesser despite Marcone clearly can pull off more complex magic.

[TheCuriousFan]

I assume you mean Namshiel and his previous host? Fair enough...although past performance isn't always a reliable indicator of future outcomes. Namshiel still has to teach Marcone etc. But that being said, he is the Fallen who has displayed the most magic through his host. Which does make you wonder why not the others...it isn't like angels (fallen or no) have an issue with magic. Must be to do with who they are and how they work.

groinkick
Totally agree, in universe. By rights Marcone has already displayed enough to show he is advanced of Harry and should beat him in a duel, not including Namshiel's tricks in hi previous host.

However. The way Harry talks about Marcone with disdain and being a magic novice etc belies the above. Only one of two possible conclusions can be true. Either Harry is absurdly overconfident/in denial about Marcon's power and skill/talent etc. Which Harry normally isn't. Or Jim doesn't want Marcone to be better...but hasn't shown why that should be true, yet Harry will somehow "prove" Marcone is the lesser despite Marcone clearly can pull off more complex magic.

He's probably right about Marcone being not up to par in a number of ways, because Marcone is supposed to be keeping pace with Harry rather than being better both in terms of brawling and organisation. Marcone could still win a 1v1 if he let Namshiel take the wheel for a few minutes but fat chance of that.

As for why the other denarians don't really make with the magic too much, presumably because if every denarian was a super-wizard on top of their other abilities it'd be just absolutely impossible to balance them as an antagonist.

[Mira]

However. The way Harry talks about Marcone with disdain and being a magic novice etc belies the above. Only one of two possible conclusions can be true. Either Harry is absurdly overconfident/in denial about Marcon's power and skill/talent etc. Which Harry normally isn't. Or Jim doesn't want Marcone to be better...but hasn't shown why that should be true, yet Harry will somehow "prove" Marcone is the lesser despite Marcone clearly can pull off more complex magic.

A lot of that was Harry, just being Harry, his usual smart assed self mouthing off to provoke someone beyond his weight class.   He knows that Marcone still has a lot to learn and he also knows what Namshiel can do, however he did go up against him in Small Favor and didn't do too badly with the help of Soul Fire, something that was totally new to him at the time, he didn't even understand what was going on, when it appeared in the Aquarium as he fought him.  On the island later Namshiel let him know how much that pissed him off, Harry lasted a short while, but it was eventually a no contest, except it did distract Namshiel long enough for Michael to sneak up and lop off his head.  Since Small Favor Harry has learned quite a bit about what Soul Fire is and how to use it, he has become the Winter Knight, and he still doesn't know the meaning of being a star born.. So the battle could be epic, it sounds impossible against a Fallen Angel in the body of a ruthless mobster, but I wouldn't count Harry totally out, yet.

As far as Carlos and his water magic goes, I think it will come down to how determined they are to kill one another.

[vincentric]

Marcone/Namshiel have no real shot at defeating Harry in a duel at present.

While he has shown some advanced defensive magics, he has not demonstrated a single offensive ability beyond enchanting single-shot muskets. Unless he's got a lot more hidden away, Harry can laugh at his attacks behind his shield and wear him down.

That's not to say he won't become a magical threat. It just makes more sense for him to learn defensive magic first and rely on his army of troubleshooters for offense.  Once he feels he can adequately defend against one or two Wardens, he start learning offense so he can be more self-sufficient. He only revealed what he had because Ethniu was an unexpected situation and the battle was at the desperate last stand there on the beach. 

[morriswalters]

Marcone didn't like the odds in Battle Ground and declined and it cost him the Eye and his castle.

[Griffyn612]

Marcone didn't like the odds in Battle Ground and declined and it cost him the Eye and his castle.

Makes you wonder about the convo between Marcone and Namshiel at that point.
M: Can we take him?
N: Most likely. But he did wipe the floor with my previous host who had years more experience than you.
M: Not today then.

[groinkick]

I mean, I'm a fan of time traveling Harry doing it

Maybe he did....  Or maybe he was the one who showed up and stopped it.

Marcone didn't like the odds in Battle Ground and declined and it cost him the Eye and his castle.

Well I don't think he realized his castle was up for grabs at that point.  It did cost him the Eye but I don't think it had to do with the odds against Harry on his own.  Harry did have the Spear of destiny with him, and it may be on par with or more powerful than one of the Swords.  If Harry had been without it, who knows.  That being said Marcone did say that he had a more longer term perspective.  Perhaps it has to do with Harry the Starborn.  Maybe he knows Harry is going to be needed, or see's him as a tool for later, or that ticking off Mab wasn't worth the trouble.

Marcone/Namshiel have no real shot at defeating Harry in a duel at present.

While he has shown some advanced defensive magics, he has not demonstrated a single offensive ability beyond enchanting single-shot muskets. Unless he's got a lot more hidden away, Harry can laugh at his attacks behind his shield and wear him down.

That's because Marcone keeps his abilities close to the vest, he doesn't boast.  He's had the Coin for years and just now showed his cards because he had to.  He didn't use offensive abilities because they wouldn't have been effective against a Titan, and would have been a waste of time and energy. 

We know that Fallen can throw around Hellfire, a devastating, destructive force.  At the very least Marcone has that.  Also he broke down concrete at the molecular level.  What do you think he could do to a human body? 

"I noted, somewhere in the academic vaults of my head, that magic like that was like unbaking a damned cake back into its original components"  "Ramirez was good.  Better than me, on a technical level, by a considerable margin"  - Harry

"I just broke down the molecular structure of concrete and then chemically re-formed it inside a mold of pure will" - Marcone

One could argue that Marcone not only is capable of what Ramirez did, but by re-forming it is beyond Carlos's abilities.  Carlos broke down the molecular structure, we haven't seen him reform something on that level.  Destroying is easier than creating.

That's not to say he won't become a magical threat. It just makes more sense for him to learn defensive magic first and rely on his army of troubleshooters for offense.  Once he feels he can adequately defend against one or two Wardens, he start learning offense so he can be more self-sufficient. He only revealed what he had because Ethniu was an unexpected situation and the battle was at the desperate last stand there on the beach. 

Displayed in some of the short stories, Marcone has been preparing for a showdown with Dresden for many years.  His special bullets were created by Gard (maybe he does them now I don't know).  He had come up with strategies to defeat Harry like using explosives to wear him down, a sprinkler system to dampen his magic, and the special bullets to go through his shield to kill him...  Now he has a Coin, and has shown to be a very capable magic user.  I find it highly unlikely he hasn't been learning offensive magic.  He's shown to be at an expert level with some magic already.  Harry has said that fire magic is easy, and one of the first things a wizard learns.  Marcone  at the very least could probably burn Harry to a crisp.

[groinkick]

Makes you wonder about the convo between Marcone and Namshiel at that point.
M: Can we take him?
N: Most likely. But he did wipe the floor with my previous host who had years more experience than you.
M: Not today then.

He kind of stomped Dresden.  Dresden without knowing how used a Soulfire hand to smash him but had been getting beat pretty badly before that.  Later on he was also beating Dresden but Michael chopped off his head, and hand. 

"The Denarian ate the force spell Dresden threw at him. Then Thorned conjured a smoky prison from black threads he spewed from his mouth landing all around Dresden. The prison-spell shatters Dresden's shield and blocks all of his magic. Some unknown power creates a silver hand construct for Dresden, floating away from him and reflecting his movements. It breaks the prison and thrashes Thorny through several walls and glass ripping him to shreds, but not killing him"

"He throws green threads of light at Dresden, one of which wraps around Dresden's neck, choking him. Michael lops off his head, then cuts off his hand with the Denarian Coin in it"

[forumghost]

Harry is genuinely the worst Wizard in the entire series, it's not really a surprise that he loses to people like Carlos or Namshiel, who have actually heard the phrase "fight smarter not harder" before.

Like, when Harry takes on that team of Fomor Sorcerers in BG he talks about how they're basically loser scrubs that can make big booms but have no skill and real Wizard's laugh at them and I'm just like "Harry, how's about you put the stones down and just enjoy the view from that glass house of yours, m'kay"

[groinkick]

Harry is genuinely the worst Wizard in the entire series, it's not really a surprise that he loses to people like Carlos or Namshiel, who have actually heard the phrase "fight smarter not harder" before.

Like, when Harry takes on that team of Fomor Sorcerers in BG he talks about how they're basically loser scrubs that can make big booms but have no skill and real Wizard's laugh at them and I'm just like "Harry, how's about you put the stones down and just enjoy the view from that glass house of yours, m'kay"

I both agree, and disagree.  With book examples (and head cannon) Harry's talent in magic falls into three main categories:

1.  Combat magic:  Least technical, relies on his formidable raw power.  Hits really really hard but technical wizards can see it coming, defend, and counter. 

2.  Non combat magic:  Harry is a wizard, capable of all forms of magic.  If he sets his mind to it, and has time, he can pull off really impressive magic.  It requires time, and effort, so not effective in a pinch.

3.  Crafting magical items (blasting rod, rings, bracelet ect).  Jim has said that Harry is Senior Council level at constructing this stuff.  So he has a rare talent for it, think Lucio and how nobody can craft enchanted swords like her.  So this is a legit magical talent, and Harry is expert level. 

So yeah Harry is limited in some ways, but an expert in others.  Give him time to prepare, and he can pull of some incredible stuff.  In combat there are wizards who can beat him, but very few could actually take Harry's best shot.  They need to avoid direct combat with him because he hits so hard that they aren't likely to survive his first pyro blast (if he wants blood). 

[TheCuriousFan]

Marcone didn't like the odds in Battle Ground and declined and it cost him the Eye and his castle.

I mean if you're going to try and take Harry straight-up, something that'll let you survive the death curse is pretty much mandatory, the likeliest outcome of trying for it there was a mutual kill.

I both agree, and disagree.  With book examples (and head cannon) Harry's talent in magic falls into three main categories:

1.  Combat magic:  Least technical, relies on his formidable raw power.  Hits really really hard but technical wizards can see it coming, defend, and counter. 

2.  Non combat magic:  Harry is a wizard, capable of all forms of magic.  If he sets his mind to it, and has time, he can pull off really impressive magic.  It requires time, and effort, so not effective in a pinch.

3.  Crafting magical items (blasting rod, rings, bracelet ect).  Jim has said that Harry is Senior Council level at constructing this stuff.  So he has a rare talent for it, think Lucio and how nobody can craft enchanted swords like her.  So this is a legit magical talent, and Harry is expert level. 

So yeah Harry is limited in some ways, but an expert in others.  Give him time to prepare, and he can pull of some incredible stuff.  In combat there are wizards who can beat him, but very few could actually take Harry's best shot.  They need to avoid direct combat with him because he hits so hard that they aren't likely to survive his first pyro blast (if he wants blood). 

Harry is genuinely the worst Wizard in the entire series, it's not really a surprise that he loses to people like Carlos or Namshiel, who have actually heard the phrase "fight smarter not harder" before.

Like, when Harry takes on that team of Fomor Sorcerers in BG he talks about how they're basically loser scrubs that can make big booms but have no skill and real Wizard's laugh at them and I'm just like "Harry, how's about you put the stones down and just enjoy the view from that glass house of yours, m'kay"

Of two minds about this, on one hand yeah he is kind of bad at magic but it's getting a bit exaggerated just how incompetent he is at times. But on the other hand he definitely isn't senior council level considering Ebenezar is running around with a staff blast that's at least 1000x as strong and better coat equivalent and he's not the senior council's enchanting specialist, he's top of the line for his generation when it comes to making things but still can't hold a candle to the older wizards in skill.