It didn't make sense to me (Harry/Starborn/created)

[Mira]

Lets say Justin really is dead (I suspect he's a BCV so he is both DED and still a threat), who would Elaine be working with do you think?  The only clue I think they gave about Cowl was that his wrists were scarred up.

That would make an interesting twist, also since Justin's version of Bob, was Evil Bob, he'd have free access to Kemmler's knowledge.  It wasn't until Harry got a hold of him that Bob had a personality change, locked away the knowledge, until Harry forced him to dredge it up in Dead Beat, so Justin would have had access.  So when you look at it in that light, yeah, Harry killed him, but he came back from the dead as Cowl, it is possible.  However I don't buy that Elaine is Kumori.

[TheCuriousFan]

That would make an interesting twist, also since Justin's version of Bob, was Evil Bob, he'd have free access to Kemmler's knowledge.  It wasn't until Harry got a hold of him that Bob had a personality change, locked away the knowledge, until Harry forced him to dredge it up in Dead Beat, so Justin would have had access.  So when you look at it in that light, yeah, Harry killed him, but he came back from the dead as Cowl, it is possible.  However I don't buy that Elaine is Kumori.

Especially because Mouse would have tried to warn Harry because he got a chance to get up close and smell both of them.

[Arjan]

Lets say Justin really is dead (I suspect he's a BCV so he is both DED and still a threat), who would Elaine be working with do you think?  The only clue I think they gave about Cowl was that his wrists were scarred up.

Sarissa. Does anyone really think she could get rid of that debt so easily?

[Mira]

Sarissa. Do anyone really think she could get rid of that debt so easily?

Actually we don't know, she hasn't been Summer Lady all that long, and before the events of Cold Days she was living mostly as a mortal woman.  Also as we've learned from Mab, and I assume that Sarrissa would have as well, the Fae don't call in or disperse debts until the time is right and to their best advantage.

[Griffyn612]

Lets say Justin really is dead (I suspect he's a BCV so he is both DED and still a threat), who would Elaine be working with do you think?  The only clue I think they gave about Cowl was that his wrists were scarred up.

I think Cowl scouted the Sidhe Courts and found Elaine with Summer. I think she chaffed at being Aurora's pet, and he offered her an out and a partnership.

My theory is that Cowl made vector gifts for Bianca to give to both Sidhe Courts as part of her elevation. I think we saw Bianca give Lea hers on-screen, and I think Elaine gave Aurora the other. Aurora was Nemfected, etc, etc, and then she dies and Elaine is "debt free".

Afterwards, Elaine and Cowl decide to continue working together, both wanting power and freedom from the Council. She's adamant about not being controlled, so he gives her free rein. He continues her training, he helps keep her away from the Council, and she helps him plot to destroy or overthrow the Council so she doesn't have to spend 500+ years looking over her shoulder.

[Mira]

I think Cowl scouted the Sidhe Courts and found Elaine with Summer. I think she chaffed at being Aurora's pet, and he offered her an out and a partnership.

My theory is that Cowl made vector gifts for Bianca to give to both Sidhe Courts as part of her elevation. I think we saw Bianca give Lea hers on-screen, and I think Elaine gave Aurora the other. Aurora was Nemfected, etc, etc, and then she dies and Elaine is "debt free".

Afterwards, Elaine and Cowl decide to continue working together, both wanting power and freedom from the Council. She's adamant about not being controlled, so he gives her free rein. He continues her training, he helps keep her away from the Council, and she helps him plot to destroy or overthrow the Council so she doesn't have to spend 500+ years looking over her shoulder.

Sounds plausible, or someone else is looking after her, I find it hard to believe if she really is a star born like Harry is, someone doesn't know what she is and is trying to use her for their own purpose if they can.

[Snark Knight]

Here is what seems to be contradictory to me from Drakul ""I would tell you to ask of your own White Council what they aren't telling you, what they bred you for, and what they expect you to do"
This just doesn't seem correct...  Maggie was considered crazy by the Council, I don't see the Council trusting her with something like this, and yet based on what Drakul said, it sounds like the White Council was behind Harry being born.

Drakul is so far above mortals he probably doesn't pay a lot of attention to the difference between a cabal of shady wizards (Maggie, Justin, possibly Cowl and Peabody and some other unsavory buddies) and the official Council. Some wizards trying to instigate a starborn? Must be a Council weapons-breeding program. As a baddie, it's natural to assume other supernatural nation-states do evil thing on an official capacity, rather than a rogues gallery.

[JTass]

Q: How do you forge a weapon?
A: You heat the raw material to just short of the point of destruction then beat the hell out of it with a harder, heavier object to shape it into the desired form.
First Justin and HWWB, then Lea, then the White Council and/or Wardens were (theoretically) manipulated into being the hammers that pounded Harry into the desired form.

If there's a guiding hand behind the events in Harry's early life, the person behind this theoretical plan isn't protecting Harry because s/he is using the same underlying logic that Lea uses to explain the harshness of her training methods with Molly in Ghost Story.

[seanham]

At the time of Harry's conception/birth, the Council could have been in favor of Margaret having a Starborn baby, but later, there was a political shift, and the Council's view changed. Do we know how long Langtry has been The Merlin for? Could he have taken over around the time of Harry's birth, causing the change in political mindset?

[Mira]

A: You heat the raw material to just short of the point of destruction then beat the hell out of it with a harder, heavier object to shape it into the desired form.

That is what is generally thought, however forging a good strong weapon is a lot more complicated.  Heat it too hot or too long, you burn up the metal.  There are so many steps, do it right and you have a weapon that is strong, sharp, flexible, and it will kill.. Mess up any of those steps, the blade won't harden, some iron cannot be hardened into steel.. Mess up a step, the blade warps, develops cracks, the blade shatters upon testing.  Harry has been forged and tempered over the years, but now the quality of his steel is being tested, will he shatter, warp, or fail to harden?  Or is he strong, sharp, flexible, and a killer if need be?

[morriswalters]

groinkick is making an unwarranted assumption. I don't know that the Council ever thought Maggie was crazy.

We have one place in the text where all the players were at a table and talking.  At that meeting where Maggie pitched an idea.  Eb said he didn't want whatever and that she shouldn't either, which isn't the same as saying the Council might not be interested. What is interesting about the dinner is the attendees, the Blackstaff, the Reds, Papa Raith and Maggie.

[Griffyn612]

groinkick is making an unwarranted assumption. I don't know that the Council ever thought Maggie was crazy.

We have one place in the text where all the players were at a table and talking.  At that meeting where Maggie pitched an idea.  Eb said he didn't want whatever and that she shouldn't either, which isn't the same as saying the Council might not be interested. What is interesting about the dinner is the attendees, the Blackstaff, the Reds, Papa Raith and Maggie.

It's just speculation, but Eb also called Justin an associate of Maggie's, so I suspect he was there as well.

[groinkick]

groinkick is making an unwarranted assumption.  I don't know that the Council ever thought Maggie was crazy.

no.


Aug 6, 2011
Question:  Maggie LeFay, Morgan LeFay, is that a generational name, are they related? 

Jim:  No, the “LeFay” is something that gets added as an honorific in the wizarding community, it’s one of those kind of mixed names that you give somebody that is sort of a name that she’s earned, so it’s a bit of status, and it also means you’re insane. Which everybody thought Harry’s mom was, being a big-time explorer of Ways and hanging out with Faeries and generally kind of doing things that most wizards considered to be pretty crazily, stupidly dangerous. When you’re somebody who can live for three or four hundred years as long as nothing goes wrong, you tend to be a little conservative, really, you get a lot of benefit from that. And certainly, in Maggie’s case, she was bucking the trend, and we’ll probably get into a little bit more of why she was doing that later in the books.

Q.   Was Harry’s mom related to Morgan LeFay?
A.   No, LeFay is simply a mark of honor.  And a mark of insanity.

June 15, 2011
I mean, there’s more than one reason Maggie the elder got dubbed “LeFay.”  Sure, it was because she was on good terms with the faeries, and sure it was because she could travel all over the world in very brief amounts of time the way some of the fae can.  But remember that “fay” or “fey” is also an old word for “crazy.”

[morriswalters]

I stand corrected.  Yet the text is what it is.

[groinkick]

I stand corrected.  Yet the text is what it is.

Yeah the books don't have it.  I should probably site the source when I make certain statements.