Author Topic: "It is not yet your hour."  (Read 18522 times)

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: "It is not yet your hour."
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2021, 01:52:52 PM »
I sometimes wonder if Jim didn't model the Council after the Medieval Papacy.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: "It is not yet your hour."
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2021, 01:59:45 PM »
I sometimes wonder if Jim didn't model the Council after the Medieval Papacy.
Then it’s now time for a schism. What is a pope without an antipope?
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline TheCuriousFan

  • Special Collections Division
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 16609
    • View Profile
Re: "It is not yet your hour."
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2021, 02:17:18 PM »
I'd be surprised if there's only two sides in the inevitable White Council civil war (which book is that going to dominate? It doesn't really seem to fit any of the next few book pitches).
Currently dealing with a backlog of games.

If you want me to type up a book quote or find a WoJ quote, send me a PM.

Rest in peace mdodd.

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Re: "It is not yet your hour."
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2021, 02:59:34 PM »
Then the question is, what does Cowl want to do? Is it merely "I want to be able to practice black magic to my hearts content and kill, control, and otherwise do what I like to people as I am god-king" or is it more around the fact the Council won't allow any political interference, persecute even minor infractions with serious and sometimes fatal results, have no real court of appeal and an overly simplistic and out-dated legal structure, let alone the outdated and overly simply and often unrepresentative voting system, and governing body that is effectively immune to criticism or change?

I mean, if it's the later you can hardly blame the guy. The Council if it existed in our world would be a disaster of an organisation. I suspect though it's a bit of both.

If Cowl is Cristos, I doubt he will continue the charade much longer. I'd expect reforms that benefit him and his supporters to happen, probably while he politically or literally kills his opponents.
If I had to guess, Cowl had altruistic motives for getting into necromancy way back. Maybe he wanted to bring someone back. He made a similar pitch to Kumori, who also likes the idea of being able to stop death. But Cowl was corrupted by the dark side of the Force magic, probably due to dabbling with outsider magic, and he's gotten worse because of it.

Then it’s now time for a schism. What is a pope without an antipope?
We almost had it at the end of Turn Coat, with Cristos "the savior" threatening to take a third of the Council with him if he didn't become Senior.

I'd be surprised if there's only two sides in the inevitable White Council civil war (which book is that going to dominate? It doesn't really seem to fit any of the next few book pitches).
I don't know that we'll ever see it. It'll probably happen mostly off-screen between the end of one book and the end of the next.

Offline forumghost

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2729
    • View Profile
Re: "It is not yet your hour."
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2021, 08:11:08 PM »
If I had to guess, Cowl had altruistic motives for getting into necromancy way back. Maybe he wanted to bring someone back. He made a similar pitch to Kumori, who also likes the idea of being able to stop death. But Cowl was corrupted by the dark side of the Force magic

He had bad dreams about his wife dying in Childbirth you see...

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Re: "It is not yet your hour."
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2021, 10:38:03 PM »
He had bad dreams about his wife dying in Childbirth you see...
Exactly. And now he's got great plans for his new empire.

Offline TheCuriousFan

  • Special Collections Division
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 16609
    • View Profile
Re: "It is not yet your hour."
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2021, 12:59:09 AM »
I don't know that we'll ever see it. It'll probably happen mostly off-screen between the end of one book and the end of the next.
With all the buildup it's gotten that'd be a bit disappointing.
Currently dealing with a backlog of games.

If you want me to type up a book quote or find a WoJ quote, send me a PM.

Rest in peace mdodd.

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Re: "It is not yet your hour."
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2021, 01:33:57 AM »
With all the buildup it's gotten that'd be a bit disappointing.
It'd be only one aspect of the plot, and only the motivation for one mortal participant in an eternal war between gods.

In my mind mind, Cowl being a cackling mad wizard trying to give reality over to Outsiders so he can lick their feet is a bad motivation. Anything humanizing and relatable that gets twisted by corruption would seem to be better.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: "It is not yet your hour."
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2021, 02:39:57 AM »
I'd be surprised if there's only two sides in the inevitable White Council civil war (which book is that going to dominate? It doesn't really seem to fit any of the next few book pitches).
I suspect it has already happened off the page.  Battle Ground was the final series of events that started with Changes.  There are a few pointers, most of the North American contingent sidelined or dead. Carlos telling Harry that the Council thinks it can dictate to Eb and make it stick. Morgan gone. Luccio sidelined. This is how it works.  There is no indication that the Circle was exclusively Cowl and that others weren't waiting to take control quietly, politically.

Offline seanham

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
Re: "It is not yet your hour."
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2021, 03:01:59 AM »
Why wasn't The Merlin in PT. He is an excellent politician so I would think he would have been the best one for the job of smoothing things over between Accorded Nations. Why would he send Cristos an inferior politician unless he had something else going on or an ulterior motive?

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: "It is not yet your hour."
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2021, 03:34:14 AM »
I sometimes wonder if Jim didn't model the Council after the Medieval Papacy.
I wouldn't be surprised if that was part of the inspiration, although I am sure it's not the only one. Especially in the earlier books the Council and it's actions are used to show the frustrations that many have of governing bodies etc. I don't know if these are Jim's personal views or not but Harry definitely has a bit of a libertarian vibe. Not that I am saying that's a bad thing or a good thing, just the read I got from what Harry says about such things from time to time.

I'd be surprised if there's only two sides in the inevitable White Council civil war (which book is that going to dominate? It doesn't really seem to fit any of the next few book pitches).
Agreed. Assuming there are enough left to have more than two sides when whatever happens to the White Council occurs. A schism could leave several factions to fight it out. But they could also be slaughtered by some horrible demon or god or whatever, which would leave next to none available. Neither would be good for humanity on the whole. '

I'd guess the first option will occur sooner rather than later as the Librarians will show up and the tension increases between Harry and the Council. I assume Harry will be the one challenging the Council but it's possible there will be others, and it's possible Harry will be being used as a tool. The other scenario would either happen immediately after Harry challenges the Council OR much later during the BAT. The book that feels most likely is next book or the final book before the BAT (I think it's the one with dragons).

If I had to guess, Cowl had altruistic motives for getting into necromancy way back. Maybe he wanted to bring someone back. He made a similar pitch to Kumori, who also likes the idea of being able to stop death. But Cowl was corrupted by the dark side of the Force magic, probably due to dabbling with outsider magic, and he's gotten worse because of it.
We almost had it at the end of Turn Coat, with Cristos "the savior" threatening to take a third of the Council with him if he didn't become Senior.
I don't know that we'll ever see it. It'll probably happen mostly off-screen between the end of one book and the end of the next.
Depends if you fall into the camp of Cowl is telling the truth about ending death or not. Kemmler clearly was more than an anarchist - he had grand plans for the world. I'd say that he chose Cowl because he truly believed Cowl could help him with that. Of Cowl's apprentices, Cowl seems to be following that path the closest but he also is the most disdainful of Kemmler and clearly thinks his plans are better and saner. Which suggests some possible altruistic motives even if he can't see how dark his outcomes are. Cowl surely is corrupted because of dark magic, like most warlocks are, yet we don't see him gibbering like most of them either. Which suggests that either he understands a bit about how the corruption happens and thinks he has taken steps to control it, or it's affecting him in a very different way (yet still making him go insane). The fact that his magic didn't feel as evil as Corpsetakers or Grevane suggests the former is more likely.

We could see it in the next book in a certain scenario. Something like when Peabody attacks the White Council would fit Jim's patterns. There might be some summit or congregation of the majority of the Council and it goes to hell. But I would like to see Jim do something a bit different for a change. For instance, if Harry got work from Ebenezar that the Council has fallen and Cristos is in control of what remains, and several Senior Council wizards are dead or missing etc, Cristos had the backing of Outsiders or other terrible beings, and Harry should prepare for an assault in a few hours. Seems like the premise of a horrible weekend in Harry's life. That's right when Harry gets pulled into the Mirror Mirror universe OR the Librarians start attack wizards OR horrible monsters start attacking and Molly is captured and the world will end soon etc. Maybe all of it.

It'd be only one aspect of the plot, and only the motivation for one mortal participant in an eternal war between gods.

In my mind mind, Cowl being a cackling mad wizard trying to give reality over to Outsiders so he can lick their feet is a bad motivation. Anything humanizing and relatable that gets twisted by corruption would seem to be better.
Agreed. I sincerely doubt Cowl is just some fanatic fawning for the return of the Old Ones. I am sure he believes he can manipulate the coming cycle somehow and achieve his aims, likely a new world order. He even mentioned something along those lines I believe.

I suspect it has already happened off the page.  Battle Ground was the final series of events that started with Changes.  There are a few pointers, most of the North American contingent sidelined or dead. Carlos telling Harry that the Council thinks it can dictate to Eb and make it stick. Morgan gone. Luccio sidelined. This is how it works.  There is no indication that the Circle was exclusively Cowl and that others weren't waiting to take control quietly, politically.
Seems more like opening moves rather than the main event. The Merlin is still in control (apparently), the Gatekeeper is still around and I doubt he would allow the collapse of the White Council until he thinks it's appropriate. Ebenezar survived Battle Ground and I doubt he will allow the White Council's destruction at this stage, unless he were behind it (which I am not convinced of). Martha Liberty is still around too. But I think over the past few years it has been chipped away at and prepared for it's eventual takeover/destruction.

Why wasn't The Merlin in PT. He is an excellent politician so I would think he would have been the best one for the job of smoothing things over between Accorded Nations. Why would he send Cristos an inferior politician unless he had something else going on or an ulterior motive?
Because you don't send the CEO or President for routine meetings. The peace talks summit wasn't meant to be the opening for an enormous battle. Secondly, Cristos isn't necessarily an inferior politician. By some measures he is the better politician. Think of what he achieved. He has united such a strong block of wizards he could start his own Council if he seceded, and used that leverage to get a position on the Senior Council. Ever since he has increased his power and influence, much at the expense of other Senior Council wizards including the Merlin. In Peace Talks it's even noted that Cristos is throwing around a lot of orders now and so it wasn't necessarily the Merlin who organised the vote to kick Harry out.

Beyond that, the Merlin may have had an idea not to attend (via his future Sight - just a hint not the full picture) or the Gatekeeper might have warned him away. He also might have been busy with other matters...like the possible fall of the White Council. The peace talks were only a part of the Council's responsibilities and operations, and who knows what else he had to deal with. Aside from all that, he's a huge target out in the open and you don't risk your leader in compromising events if you don't have to - just like the peace talks ended up being.
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline MoroccoMole

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 57
    • View Profile
Re: "It is not yet your hour."
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2021, 05:14:28 AM »

Also, not sure we can take this as confirmation - but when asked about what the Black Council were doing in Peace Talks and Battle Ground, Jim responded that the Black Council was very busy not getting squashed by Ethniu. Which could well imply that any of those who were at the Battle were not in fact Black Council. It's not hard evidence, but it's something.


but when asked about what the Black Council were doing in Peace Talks and Battle Ground, Jim responded that the Black Council was very busy not getting squashed by Ethniu. Which could well imply that any of those who were at the Battle were not in fact Black Council. It's not hard evidence, but it's something.

I don't know if trying hard not to be squashed by Ethniu was harder than being in Wisconsin, I take that line to mean that members of the Black Council were in Chicago and actively fighting.  What if the setup is that Eb is black council due to his hatred of the White Court?   The kind of hate he demonstrated and how "out of control" he was, to the point of killing Harry could show that he'd do anything to destroy the Whamps.  He's the black staff, so he's already proven he is an end justify the means kind of guy.  Maybe the black council is the necessary evil to get him what he wants. The level of betrayal of Eb being on the black council could be the thing that brings Harry to the point of defying the White Council and forcing Eb to face him because of the parole conditions imposed by the White Council.  And that kind of evil shit is not beyond Mr. Butcher.
[/quote]
I like a man who grins when he fights.

~Winston Churchill On Enthusiasm~

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: "It is not yet your hour."
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2021, 05:46:26 AM »
It'd be only one aspect of the plot, and only the motivation for one mortal participant in an eternal war between gods.
In the end it is all about the outsiders, the outsiders puppets and people who think they can use the outsiders for their own purposes.


Quote
In my mind mind, Cowl being a cackling mad wizard trying to give reality over to Outsiders so he can lick their feet is a bad motivation. Anything humanizing and relatable that gets twisted by corruption would seem to be better.
The cackling bootlicker is not how it started. It is not even how it was most of the time. It is just how it ends before he is discarded and dies.

It is just not safety play with outsiders whatever your motivation is. Being on their side does not end well.

They are Lovecraft based after all.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline The_Sibelis

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1036
    • View Profile
Re: "It is not yet your hour."
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2021, 09:23:53 AM »
Quote
Depends if you fall into the camp of Cowl is telling the truth about ending death or not.
it's been a loooong time since I looked into it, so I can't remember which mythos I sourced it from, but ending death is the first step to unmaking reality. Can't have good without evil, sunlight without rain, ect. Can't live if there's no death.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: "It is not yet your hour."
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2021, 10:47:14 AM »
Death is part of reality so if you change that…
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]