About those Titans

[groinkick]

So during the discussion about dark god Cowl vs Ethniu I got to thinking about how the Titan's came to be.  How many of them came into power from worship, or sacrifices?  All of them?  Or only some of them?  Have they always existed (time hipsters), or did they come into existence?  A lot of them appear to need worship, and belief for them to exist here so does that mean they came after humans or that they only need human belief to exist in this realm, but have always existed on another plane of sorts?

What do you think?

[Yuillegan]

Titans are described by Jim, and generally speaking, as proto-gods. Proto as a prefix means "first".

So I'd say they were the temporal hipsters and it was the later gods that were their offspring/used ascension rituals. But you raise an interesting point. Some do seem to "need" worship. Vadderung/Odin fits squarely in this category.

There was an old WOJ about how beings need belief to have a tether on Earth, and this is discussed a bit more in the Thomas-perspective short story "Back Up". I don't know that having power from before the universe and needing worship to be on Earth are mutually exclusive. Perhaps it's more a matter of how much power you can bring with you. Perhaps if Vadderung went Outside he might be able to go get more power...with the obvious risk of conflict with Outsiders.

It's a really intriguing cosmic area.

[groinkick]

Titans are described by Jim, and generally speaking, as proto-gods. Proto as a prefix means "first".

So I'd say they were the temporal hipsters and it was the later gods that were their offspring/used ascension rituals. But you raise an interesting point. Some do seem to "need" worship. Vadderung/Odin fits squarely in this category.

There was an old WOJ about how beings need belief to have a tether on Earth, and this is discussed a bit more in the Thomas-perspective short story "Back Up". I don't know that having power from before the universe and needing worship to be on Earth are mutually exclusive. Perhaps it's more a matter of how much power you can bring with you. Perhaps if Vadderung went Outside he might be able to go get more power...with the obvious risk of conflict with Outsiders.

It's a really intriguing cosmic area.

Exactly.  It's kind of like how Ivy is eliminating tethers for other Being's out there.  They won't not exist, they just won't have a way of accessing reality.

[Regenbogen]

Exactly.  It's kind of like how Ivy is eliminating tethers for other Being's out there.  They won't not exist, they just won't have a way of accessing reality.

Yes. That's what they are trying to accomplish with the Oblivion War. Making beings be forgotten, thus destroying their tether in this world.

Huh, I wonder if this would work with fairies, too. LOL.
*I don't believe in fairies!*

Edit: Thinking about it, this is what fairytales are working against. Keeping the memory of and believe in beings so that they can continue to exist or be able to be in our reality.

Edit#2: I wonder if Loki just felt a great increase of power ....

[groinkick]

Yes. That's what they are trying to accomplish with the Oblivion War. Making beings be forgotten, thus destroying their tether in this world.

Huh, I wonder if this would work with fairies, too. LOL.
*I don't believe in fairies!*

It's deeper than that.  They Sidhe are connected to many things people do believe in.  The Winter and Summer Courts are actually tied to humans belief in weather events.  That being said, the Brothers Grimm were trying to come up with a way to cut ties to the NeverNever I think.

[Arjan]

Yes. That's what they are trying to accomplish with the Oblivion War. Making beings be forgotten, thus destroying their tether in this world.

Huh, I wonder if this would work with fairies, too. LOL.
*I don't believe in fairies!*

It does work with fairies but Mab is smart and invested in arts and literature. She was very happy with the Grimm brothers. They wrote that book that helped to keep the Sidhe connected.

[Regenbogen]

@Arjan and Groinkick:
I edited while you were posting

[Arjan]

There was an old book on the table next to the candies, set carefully and precisely in place beside the dish. It was titled Kinder- und Hausmärchen. I leaned down and opened it. The text was in German. It was really old. The pages were made of paper of the finest quality, thin and crisp and edged in gold foil. On the title page, under the title, were the names Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm, and the year 1812. It was autographed, and personalized, “For Mab.”

Cold days. She was a fan.

[Arjan]

The Erlking probably sponsored Schubert and Goethe. https://youtu.be/C3nxyS8wf8E

"What do you want?" I asked them. I borrowed frost from the wind and put it in my voice. The larger of the pair spoke. "The book." But which book? I wondered. "Uh-huh. You're a Schubert fan boy, aren't you? You've got the look." "Goethe, actually," he said. "Give it to me." He was definitely after a copy of der Erlking, then

[Yuillegan]

Exactly.  It's kind of like how Ivy is eliminating tethers for other Being's out there.  They won't not exist, they just won't have a way of accessing reality.

It's a particularly brutal war. What's unclear is if Oblivion and the Outsider are one and the same.

Yeah, Mab and the Faeries are not going down unless society collapses and all knowledge of them is lost...or if humans find out about the knowledge thing and decide to start eliminating knowledge themselves. I wouldn't put it past the Librarians. One is the end of the world, one is the beginning of a far harsher and less interesting one. I'd bet the former is more likely but I hope neither come to pass in the Dresden Files.

[groinkick]

It's a particularly brutal war. What's unclear is if Oblivion and the Outsider are one and the same.

I suspect no...  The White Council is involved with fighting the Outsiders while Ivy is deliberately keeping wizards away from that information because they live a long time.  I think Jim said Harry would never know about the Oblivion war (but who knows if he was just messing with us)

Yeah, Mab and the Faeries are not going down unless society collapses and all knowledge of them is lost...or if humans find out about the knowledge thing and decide to start eliminating knowledge themselves. I wouldn't put it past the Librarians. One is the end of the world, one is the beginning of a far harsher and less interesting one. I'd bet the former is more likely but I hope neither come to pass in the Dresden Files.

It depends.  They are tied to those beliefs, but what if that tether is broken?  The Stone Table being destroyed for example.

[Griffyn612]

Combining the unifying theory with the elephant theory, I'd say there's a good chance the dresdenverse proto-gods were fallen angels (similar to grigori) that birthed mixed offspring that became later gods. But in my use of the term angel, i don't mean to restrict them to Abrahamic interpretation, but just the idea that there were Avatars that embody universal laws. Like Serack talks about.

That's likely why Ethniu was calling the angel sponsoring Butters "traitor, coward". They might have been equals in a sense, if not identical things then similar in make and function, and Ethniu chose goddesshood and the angel choose service to the Light.

[The_Sibelis]

I don't think they need worship. They existed before humans did per Ethniu so that wouldn't really work. They're elementals, beings representative of primal forces. Like Dragons, they need no direct worship. Only continued knowledge by humanity of their existence. Or to put it another way, the things they embody are part of reality, of existence to humanity, ergo they can't 'unbelieve' them. Unlike the Queen's, who have taken the power upon themselves, but do not necessarily represent it in it's entirety. Man's the winter queen, not the queen of the artic and antarctic. Per recent Woj the queen's are mostly northern hemisphere, relying on liaisons with the southern wild fae. Where as the frost Giants were probably winter in it's totality.

[K.L.O.E.]

Combining the unifying theory with the elephant theory, I'd say there's a good chance the dresdenverse proto-gods were fallen angels (similar to grigori) that birthed mixed offspring that became later gods. But in my use of the term angel, i don't mean to restrict them to Abrahamic interpretation, but just the idea that there were Avatars that embody universal laws. Like Serack talks about.

That's likely why Ethniu was calling the angel sponsoring Butters "traitor, coward". They might have been equals in a sense, if not identical things then similar in make and function, and Ethniu chose goddesshood and the angel choose service to the Light.

That fits with the Hecatoncheires being Titan-spawn and them being able to make armor from Mordite. They are kind of half of the Outside half of the Material, then the later Titan-Spawn (what we call Gods) became more tied down to the physical world. I think Dragons come from the middle layer. They are lesser than Angels but greater than most of the Gods.

[Griffyn612]

I don't think they need worship. They existed before humans did per Ethniu so that wouldn't really work. They're elementals, beings representative of primal forces. Like Dragons, they need no direct worship. Only continued knowledge by humanity of their existence. Or to put it another way, the things they embody are part of reality, of existence to humanity, ergo they can't 'unbelieve' them. Unlike the Queen's, who have taken the power upon themselves, but do not necessarily represent it in it's entirety. Man's the winter queen, not the queen of the artic and antarctic. Per recent Woj the queen's are mostly northern hemisphere, relying on liaisons with the southern wild fae. Where as the frost Giants were probably winter in it's totality.

I don't know. On one hand, the oldest generation (Ethniu's dad) might have been angels/Aspects/Avatars that don't require worship or humans; they just exist(ed) with their own power tied to their nature.

But the Eye of Balor ran off terror and fear. Maybe papa Balor could fuel it on his own without help, but Ethniu needed the boost of fear to charge it.

Seems likely that each generation lost a bit of their Powered by their Nature fuel and grew more dependent on Human Interaction fuel.

That fits with the Hecatoncheires being Titan-spawn and them being able to make armor from Mordite. They are kind of half of the Outside half of the Material, then the later Titan-Spawn (what we call Gods) became more tied down to the physical world. I think Dragons come from the middle layer. They are lesser than Angels but greater than most of the Gods.

It seems likely that the eldest generation predated reality, and time, and are therefore beyond the limitations of those born within both.

Uriel, the Fallen, and the Walkers might be the only ones we've seen in the series that fit the bill for that. Everybody else is a few to many generations down the line, up to and including wizards as very diluted progeny.