Combining the unifying theory with the elephant theory, I'd say there's a good chance the dresdenverse proto-gods were fallen angels (similar to grigori) that birthed mixed offspring that became later gods. But in my use of the term angel, i don't mean to restrict them to Abrahamic interpretation, but just the idea that there were Avatars that embody universal laws. Like Serack talks about.
That's likely why Ethniu was calling the angel sponsoring Butters "traitor, coward". They might have been equals in a sense, if not identical things then similar in make and function, and Ethniu chose goddesshood and the angel choose service to the Light.
That certainly fits Seracks theory. It's slightly harder to work out whether the Light predates all the others as we don't have enough info. There's also a logic problem to some degree (probably beyond human comprehension) in that if all of those beings (Outsiders, Titans, Angels, TWG etc) all existed
before time...there is no way to measure what/who was "first" (which becomes a meaningless concept to some degree).
I don't think they need worship. They existed before humans did per Ethniu so that wouldn't really work. They're elementals, beings representative of primal forces. Like Dragons, they need no direct worship. Only continued knowledge by humanity of their existence. Or to put it another way, the things they embody are part of reality, of existence to humanity, ergo they can't 'unbelieve' them. Unlike the Queen's, who have taken the power upon themselves, but do not necessarily represent it in it's entirety. Man's the winter queen, not the queen of the artic and antarctic. Per recent Woj the queen's are mostly northern hemisphere, relying on liaisons with the southern wild fae. Where as the frost Giants were probably winter in it's totality.
Is there a difference really between worship and knowledge of the being? Have we seen evidence for this?
I suspect, although I cannot prove, that it isn't really about power itself. It's all about how much you have access to and what restrictions are on it. Mab is the embodiment of the Queen of Winter, which in turn represents a part of the natural order that humans "worship" for want of a better word. Her name, even the being underneath the mantle, isn't important. It's the idea behind it that's important.
I am fairly certain Jim is using a similar concept to Warhammer in that mortal psychic energy (i.e. belief and knowledge) creates/shapes the supernatural. Jim likely has adjusted it to fit the universe he has created, and account for other elements he has brought in. But it's the collective power of mortals that shapes reality. What's interesting in Warhammer is that if mortals were to die out reality wouldn't end BUT the beings that rely on their psychic energy would be cut off (this is true in Warhammer Fantasy AND 40k). It's even attempted several times in both stories that a group will try and deprive those psychic entities.
That fits with the Hecatoncheires being Titan-spawn and them being able to make armor from Mordite. They are kind of half of the Outside half of the Material, then the later Titan-Spawn (what we call Gods) became more tied down to the physical world. I think Dragons come from the middle layer. They are lesser than Angels but greater than most of the Gods.
Ferro might be lesser than angels and most gods simply because he is a servitor. He isn't included in those who predate the universe. The only gods he appears to be above are those who gave up their power/new gods. He doesn't rank in at Zeus/Archangel/Mothers level. He is above Vadderung and Mab etc simply because they are more active in the world. That's the cost clearly.
I don't know. On one hand, the oldest generation (Ethniu's dad) might have been angels/Aspects/Avatars that don't require worship or humans; they just exist(ed) with their own power tied to their nature.
But the Eye of Balor ran off terror and fear. Maybe papa Balor could fuel it on his own without help, but Ethniu needed the boost of fear to charge it.
Seems likely that each generation lost a bit of their Powered by their Nature fuel and grew more dependent on Human Interaction fuel.
It seems likely that the eldest generation predated reality, and time, and are therefore beyond the limitations of those born within both.
Uriel, the Fallen, and the Walkers might be the only ones we've seen in the series that fit the bill for that. Everybody else is a few to many generations down the line, up to and including wizards as very diluted progeny.
Agreed. I can't see Balor needing more energy...but then again maybe it's all about how much you can take with you. If you want access to you're full energy you have to break reality a bit, which seems like that might attract all kinds of attention.
Don't forget that Zeus and the Mothers are ranked around the same level as the Archangels, which suggests they too likely don't have those limits. Then again, it's hard to say because we haven't seen any of them in the mortal world (as far as we know).
I have wondered about whether wizards are the decedents of gods and demigods etc. On the one hand, Jim says all mortals have the potential to wield magic and we know mortals have incredible psychic power but expressed in a totally unique way (the ability to create and shape reality with Free Will). On the other hand they seem to not be able to just dominate, and wizards seem to be apart from their less exciting kin. Maybe wizards were an attempt to combine that mortal free will and immortal power. Something in the Paranet Papers suggests the most powerful wizards basically were worshipped as gods (and I think one still was...Manco Capac or something).
Another thing to consider is how belief, and time are really weird in the Dresden files. If Mortals believe in a titan, they may have through story, and worship actually created them. Because they believed the Titans were ancient, they may have actually created them in the past. I know it sounds weird but anything with time travel is. Humans may have actually created the Titans before they themselves were born by simply believing they had existed for eons.
Jim seemed to shut this down when asked about it in an AMA years ago. His response was "you're assigning limits where there aren't any" and "It's not the beings themselves that change just our understanding of who and what they are". I am paraphrasing slightly but I would say it's not so much mortals "create" these beings, rather an energy being is already around and forms itself around a mortal concept. Dresden speculates in the Butters short story Day One that the being Butters is fighting shaped itself in such a way. I assume these beings are residing in the deep Nevernever but it's hard to tell. Which suggests to some degree that mortals make room for these beings/summon them unintentionally. Interestingly, Jim also suggests that these energy beings are very difficult for us carbon-based lifeforms to understand and we try and put them into boxes and it doesn't really work so we end up confused and the being presents itself in different ways with various limits (this was from an interview right after Battle Ground).
So weird I thought Jim said they had tried to cut them off.
Anyways I'm not sure that it would have been bad. It could be that if they were erased from human knowledge, their realm (including the Gates) would become permanently separated from the mortal world. Outsiders would lose one more path to reality. Maybe not but who knows.
I don't know it would work that way. The Outsiders seem to come in through ritual...but that doesn't mean if they broke the Outer Gates they wouldn't be able to get into the mortal world. But I suspect they can't really understand the mortal world either, as it's just as alien to them as they are to us, and it's their inevitable downfall.
Jim also suggested it's possible that we have forgotten other gods etc in the past, and we wouldn't even know. Hasn't stopped the Outsiders much.
Vadderung is an elemental being according to Gard and might have known Uriel from the beginning. He gave up power to stay involved.
Based on his interactions with Ethniu and others, I'd say that was likely. I also think he was in Summer Knight...that raven near the Mother's house seems like no accident. Time will tell though.
