Justine Nemfected from the beginning?

[groinkick]

Justine has had mental issues from the very beginning.  Nothing would help her besides besides being fed on by a vampire.  Jim said that when you're Nemfected that Nemesis can't always cause a normal emotional reaction, that it's difficult for it to comprehend human emotions.  I wonder if she's been Nemfected from the get go.

[Regenbogen]

It is a possibility. But personally I am thinking that she has been nemfected in Grave Peril. Thomas was telling Harry, that the Rampires wanted Justine for something. I have to look it up.
 So I thought they wanted her because she was the perfect host to Nemesis. He wouldn't have to deal with a personality that fights being possessed. And they (whoever 'they' are. The Lords of Outer Night perhaps, working with the Outsiders and the Black Court) wanted her in the inner circle of the White Court, because the Whites are a danger to the Outsiders. Why? Don't know. Maybe because some of them or even all of them are involved in the Oblivion War.


Edit: found it: it was Justine herself who said it. OK. This makes me doubt. But here it is:

Justine said, “It’s me. It’s my fault. Bianca wanted me to come be hers. But Thomas found me first. She hasn’t forgiven him for it. She calls him a poacher.”

Grave Peril, kindle edition, ch. 29, p. 304

[Mira]

  I think I wrote a thread to that effect just after Battle Ground.  It makes sense that she would be. It also kind of underscores my other theory that Margaret had been set up to produce a star born by the Council, and Raith was the chosen father.  So while Nemesis couldn't be sure that Thomas was star born, it had to set up a check for him on the chess board.  That check was Justine, but when he turned out not to be, she was still used to great effect.

[Arjan]

When Maeve was killed Nemesis had to go somewhere and her mental instability made Justine vulnerable. So I think Cold Days, just after Maeve’s dead. Justine had too many obvious opportunities to mess up everything before that to make an earlier infection likely.

[Regenbogen]

But why would the Reds kidnap her then in Grave Peril? If she was already nemfected before, she would have been in the correct place already. They kidnapped her an Susan, but did apparently nothing to Justine while on the other hand they turned Susan. Why kidnap Justine in the first place, if not to put Nemesis inside? So Nemesis was inside Justine and held her stable until Blood Rites, when Thomas nearly killed her. I'm convinced, Thomas would not have been able to stop himself, true love or not. He didn't even remember, he stopped feeding. I think, Nemesis pushed him back, to keep Justine alive. And I have the suspicion, Nemesis and the Outsiders created this situation, so that N. would have the opportunity to leave Justine by herself for a while (explanation: almost death by White Court feeding), so he could concentrate into playing out his scheme with Lea in that time and setting up his plans with Maeve.
I think, Justine was and is the main host, planted in 'the middle', able to get in contact with most players, just an innocent and harmless human 'doe' with questionable sanity. People would talk carelessly in her presence and she could transport Nemfection to every being that needed to be controlled, without anyone thinking twice about her weird behaviour.

Further I think Lea was just a distraction for Mab. She should think, she succeeded in exorcising the Walker, and be occupied as long as needed with the deed, so he had time to prepare his real plans.

[Mira]

But why would the Reds kidnap her then in Grave Peril? If she was already nemfected before, she would have been in the correct place already. They kidnapped her an Susan, but did apparently nothing to Justine while on the other hand they turned Susan. Why kidnap Justine in the first place, if not to put Nemesis inside? So Nemesis was inside Justine and held her stable until Blood Rites, when Thomas nearly killed her. I'm convinced, Thomas would not have been able to stop himself, true love or not. He didn't even remember, he stopped feeding. I think, Nemesis pushed him back, to keep Justine alive. And I have the suspicion, Nemesis and the Outsiders created this situation, so that N. would have the opportunity to leave Justine by herself for a while (explanation: almost death by White Court feeding), so he could concentrate into playing out his scheme with Lea in that time and setting up his plans with Maeve.
I think, Justine was and is the main host, planted in 'the middle', able to get in contact with most players, just an innocent and harmless human 'doe' with questionable sanity. People would talk carelessly in her presence and she could transport Nemfection to every being that needed to be controlled, without anyone thinking twice about her weird behaviour.

Further I think Lea was just a distraction for Mab. She should think, she succeeded in exorcising the Walker, and be occupied as long as needed with the deed, so he had time to prepare his real plans.

The Reds may not have been aware, remember they were merely cat's paws for a more powerful power.. As a cat's paw, they may not have been in the know about everything.

[Arjan]

Kidnapping Justine is an obvious way of getting at Thomas and Justine is a good food source as well.

But in grave peril Nemesis was still in the athame. Enough of it to infect Lea, Maeve and Aurora. I do not think anyone else at the party was infected except Cowl.

No reason the reds even knew they were working for the outsiders or were taking commands from anyone else. They were influenced and manipulated .

[groinkick]

But in grave peril Nemesis was still in the athame.

This is based on the assumption that Nemesis wasn't already out in the world, and somehow trapped in the athame.  I just think it used it as a vector to get to the Sidhe.

Enough of it to infect Lea, Maeve and Aurora. I do not think anyone else at the party was infected except Cowl.

I don't think Cowl was infected.  He used it to infect.

No reason the reds even knew they were working for the outsiders or were taking commands from anyone else. They were influenced and manipulated .

Yep.  Probably didn't know Nemesis was involved.

[Mira]

This is based on the assumption that Nemesis wasn't already out in the world, and somehow trapped in the athame.  I just think it used it as a vector to get to the Sidhe.

I agree, but I also think it chooses it's victims based on personality flaws, not unlike the Denarians.  There was a reason why Nic selected Lasciel to be Harry's coin, and if it weren't for Butters she may have succeeded.  Lea was acting a bit infected before she got hold of the Athame.  She wanted Mab's job or at least to be more important in the Court, this is why she was so happy to get the Athame, she thought it would help her achieve that.

[forumghost]

Frankly I'm inclined to think  that Nemesis was telling the truth and Justine was taken around the time she started as Lara's secretary, simply because Nemesis has finite ability to possess people, and frankly Justine just wasn't valuable enough to waste resources on before that.

[Mira]

Frankly I'm inclined to think  that Nemesis was telling the truth and Justine was taken around the time she started as Lara's secretary, simply because Nemesis has finite ability to possess people, and frankly Justine just wasn't valuable enough to waste resources on before that.

I disagree, the moment she became the lover of Thomas, she became valuable.  Why? Because that gave them a spy with in the Raith family. 

[seanham]

I disagree, the moment she became the lover of Thomas, she became valuable.  Why? Because that gave them a spy with in the Raith family.

But keep in mind Thomas has never been big into the "family business". Yes, he is a Raith but from my understanding, he never did much to better the family like the others did. Thus he wouldn't know much so N wouldn't have much to learn.

[groinkick]

I agree, but I also think it chooses it's victims based on personality flaws, not unlike the Denarians.  There was a reason why Nic selected Lasciel to be Harry's coin, and if it weren't for Butters she may have succeeded.  Lea was acting a bit infected before she got hold of the Athame.  She wanted Mab's job or at least to be more important in the Court, this is why she was so happy to get the Athame, she thought it would help her achieve that.

I believe it was Lasciel who chose Harry, and Nicodemus was both curious, and concerned about it.  He found it curious, and it makes me wonder if Harry's mother had the same Coin.

I don't think that Nemesis seeks out those with weaknesses, it's simply able to exploit a persons weakness regardless of what it is.  Twisting you to It's desire by exploiting you.  I think Nemesis may have been trying to exploit Harry in Storm Front when he began thinking about using power to destroy the White Council...  However because he's a Starborn it doesn't have the power to bend him to It's will entirely, and he threw it off. 

If it was when Justine was Lara assistant, I wonder if she was Nemfected after she had been abducted by the Fomor.

[seanham]

I believe it was Lasciel who chose Harry, and Nicodemus was both curious, and concerned about it.  He found it curious, and it makes me wonder if Harry's mother had the same Coin.

What makes you think that Margaret had a coin?

[Mira]

I believe it was Lasciel who chose Harry, and Nicodemus was both curious, and concerned about it.  He found it curious, and it makes me wonder if Harry's mother had the same Coin.

No, it Nic who tossed the coin at Harry's feet, and he picked it up to protect little Harry, instead of picking up little Harry.  No, it was Nic who matched the coin to it's proposed host.

I don't think that Nemesis seeks out those with weaknesses, it's simply able to exploit a persons weakness regardless of what it is.  Twisting you to It's desire by exploiting you.  I think Nemesis may have been trying to exploit Harry in Storm Front when he began thinking about using power to destroy the White Council...  However because he's a Starborn it doesn't have the power to bend him to It's will entirely, and he threw it off.

I didn't mean it seeks out those with weaknesses, but it exploits the one already possessed.  In Lea's case it was her desire for power.  I don't think Harry was ever infected, so I doubt that Nemesis was exploiting him.

If it was when Justine was Lara assistant, I wonder if she was Nemfected after she had been abducted by the Fomor.

Could have been, or as far back as Grave Peril when she was a prisoner of the Reds.  Remember it was at the party where Lea got the knife.  It could be that Bianca, herself was infected and it moved over from her to Justine.