Author Topic: More Questions, Sham, Cover Up....  (Read 9394 times)

Offline Mira

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More Questions, Sham, Cover Up....
« on: May 17, 2021, 03:55:42 PM »

  Sorry I am rambling this morning, but these squirrels are finding their way onto the exercise wheel
of my brain..

   1] We know that Morgan was aware of Harry from the get go and what he was supposed to be..
    So did he keep quiet at Harry's trial when he was sixteen? If so.  Why? It cannot all be because he fell into Justin's hands..  In fact all the more reason to push for the chop..
    2] At the trial they must have known Harry was the son of Margaret, but were mostly ignorant that Eb was his grand father?  Why promote Harry to full wizard while still a minor?  Overlook sort of that he broke the First Law, putting him under the Doom in the hands of the Blackstaff.. Oh yeah, Eb had orders, watch him, kill him if need be.. If he was going full warlock?  Some thought he already had, or for signs that he couldn't be controlled?  Did being Blackstaff mean that Eb was immune from suffering the same fate as Harry if he went bad?  There were some as late as Summer Knight who were still calling Harry a warlock, how come they weren't demanding Eb's head as well?

So in effect was Harry's trial a sham to cover up the fact that they lost control of him and the experiment back when Malcolm died and Morgan failed to keep track of him?  Also the cover up
continues because they still thought up until Battle Ground that they could still use Harry.. Now, like Kemmler they fear he has become too powerful, so after the Battle of Chicago they set up a kangaroo court to convict him, sort of, they still want to control him... Good luck with that..

Offline K.L.O.E.

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Re: More Questions, Sham, Cover Up....
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2021, 12:07:42 PM »
  Sorry I am rambling this morning, but these squirrels are finding their way onto the exercise wheel
of my brain..

   1] We know that Morgan was aware of Harry from the get go and what he was supposed to be..
    So did he keep quiet at Harry's trial when he was sixteen? If so.  Why? It cannot all be because he fell into Justin's hands..  In fact all the more reason to push for the chop..
    2] At the trial they must have known Harry was the son of Margaret, but were mostly ignorant that Eb was his grand father?  Why promote Harry to full wizard while still a minor?  Overlook sort of that he broke the First Law, putting him under the Doom in the hands of the Blackstaff.. Oh yeah, Eb had orders, watch him, kill him if need be.. If he was going full warlock?  Some thought he already had, or for signs that he couldn't be controlled?  Did being Blackstaff mean that Eb was immune from suffering the same fate as Harry if he went bad?  There were some as late as Summer Knight who were still calling Harry a warlock, how come they weren't demanding Eb's head as well?

So in effect was Harry's trial a sham to cover up the fact that they lost control of him and the experiment back when Malcolm died and Morgan failed to keep track of him?  Also the cover up
continues because they still thought up until Battle Ground that they could still use Harry.. Now, like Kemmler they fear he has become too powerful, so after the Battle of Chicago they set up a kangaroo court to convict him, sort of, they still want to control him... Good luck with that..

I'd always wondered about the thought of a cover up regarding Harry disappearance into the foster system. I think the Council expelled him as he now has plausible deniability to fight anyone he wants. But I agree, any attempt at trying to control Harry will go poorly.
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Offline Mira

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Re: More Questions, Sham, Cover Up....
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2021, 12:33:17 PM »
I'd always wondered about the thought of a cover up regarding Harry disappearance into the foster system. I think the Council expelled him as he now has plausible deniability to fight anyone he wants. But I agree, any attempt at trying to control Harry will go poorly.

Yeah, it just makes no sense to me that when Harry came before the Council as a sixteen year old would be warlock that Eb defended that they didn't know who he really was.. 

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: More Questions, Sham, Cover Up....
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2021, 01:09:18 PM »
I mean, they might have been calling for Eb's head. We don't know much of what happens internally in the White Council. Especially as Harry barely is involved most of the series. Yes he is a Warden but he tries to keep his head out.

As for Morgan, I think Morgan was pushing for execution just as much as other senior White Council wizards. They were wary though as they didn't have evidence, and I suspect they were scared Eb might go rogue over it and try and split the Council. But the Senior Council would have known what Harry was, as would have the most senior warden's like Luccio.

You could well be right that the initial trial was to throw off suspicion about their knowledge of Harry and what he is, and also their involvement in his life.

Harry is uncontrollable by nature, perhaps literally, and the Council will learn that one way or another just like everyone else. 
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Offline Mira

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Re: More Questions, Sham, Cover Up....
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2021, 05:57:13 PM »
Quote
You could well be right that the initial trial was to throw off suspicion about their knowledge of Harry and what he is, and also their involvement in his life.

It's gotta be that they knew exactly what Harry was, Listens to Wind says as much in Peace Talks, so does Eb, and that they have been keeping the truth from Harry.  We shall see if Listens does tell all to Harry in a year, as he promised.  Morgan also alludes to it in his journal, it wasn't just because he feared infection or that Harry would be a warlock.. Also he says he was doing it because he promised Margaret to watch over Harry?  That never made sense to me if she was a wanted criminal and he a Warden..  All of which screams that she did indeed make a deal with the Council to give birth to a star born in return for them leaving her alone.  Another thought just hit me, Morgan lost track of Harry in the system because Mab arranged it, fearing that Morgan might try to kill him.. Then it makes sense that while Lea in disguise as a "nice lady" who'd check on Harry from time to time when he was in the orphanage while neither Morgan nor Eb could find him in the system.. But then why is it that Harry ended up with Justin?

Offline vincentric

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Re: More Questions, Sham, Cover Up....
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2021, 06:12:07 PM »
Harry is probably alive because he didn't actually use Black Magic. He broke the Law of killing with magic but did so in self defense. If he had actually been a Black Magic user, he'd probably have gotten the chop. Molly is only alive because Michael escorted several Senior Council members into her trial and because sparing her at the time gave them another hold on Harry as her sponsor.

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Re: More Questions, Sham, Cover Up....
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2021, 06:22:48 PM »
Harry is probably alive because he didn't actually use Black Magic. He broke the Law of killing with magic but did so in self defense. If he had actually been a Black Magic user, he'd probably have gotten the chop. Molly is only alive because Michael escorted several Senior Council members into her trial and because sparing her at the time gave them another hold on Harry as her sponsor.
Harry is alive because of politics, he had connections. Without that he would have been dead.
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Offline Mira

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Re: More Questions, Sham, Cover Up....
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2021, 06:24:55 PM »
Harry is probably alive because he didn't actually use Black Magic. He broke the Law of killing with magic but did so in self defense. If he had actually been a Black Magic user, he'd probably have gotten the chop. Molly is only alive because Michael escorted several Senior Council members into her trial and because sparing her at the time gave them another hold on Harry as her sponsor.

I don't think it matters whether or not you use black magic or regular magic, the First Law is, Killing with Magic, no distinction..   Harry maintained it was self defense, there are those on the Council that believed he couldn't have done it, a sixteen year old apprentice if he hadn't used black magic.. The loa saw some stains on him, and Harry admitted that some of it was.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: More Questions, Sham, Cover Up....
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2021, 08:02:33 PM »
Yes. That's what the blackstaff does..
They had control of him? Experiment?!? What?

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: More Questions, Sham, Cover Up....
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2021, 11:51:08 PM »
It's been discussed many, many times over the years but I believe the consensus is that breaking any of the Laws of Magic could be black magic. Jim has alluded to why this is several times over the years. There is an interview at a bookstore where he says there are fundamental rules about magic and once we learn them we will look back on things Harry has done and be like "you maniac!" and start to sound a bit like the Council.

My interpretation of that stems from what Harry says about magic and belief, you not only need to think something will happen, but that it should happen. You force reality to bend and break in a way it wasn't ever meant to. So arguably, even when you kill in self-defence, you still believe that the other person should die. Rightly or wrongly, I suspect using a fundamental force of creation to do that might have consequences. Same for the other Laws.

Harry is alive because of politics, he had connections. Without that he would have been dead.
It's certainly possible it was just politics. I suspect Eb would have rioted. And maybe all his allies too. But I can also see how the trial might have been for show, and that the Council never really intended to kill him as they wish to use him. Drakul hints exactly at that.

Molly is only alive because Michael escorted several Senior Council members into her trial and because sparing her at the time gave them another hold on Harry as her sponsor.
Molly is also alive because fate and chance are not exclusive. What I mean to say is that even then Mab was preparing Molly to be Winter Lady, and considering Mother Winter is likely one of the Fates among other things) I think there were FAR higher level things going on. Heaven clearly was involved. It just so happened Michael shows up to protect the right people who can protect his daughter. Not just luck. That's almost certainly by design. Also Harry and Michael would have probably tried to take out the Council, at least the Senior Council, which again probably would have lead to a civil war. Which might have been the design of the "opposition".

It's gotta be that they knew exactly what Harry was, Listens to Wind says as much in Peace Talks, so does Eb, and that they have been keeping the truth from Harry.  We shall see if Listens does tell all to Harry in a year, as he promised.  Morgan also alludes to it in his journal, it wasn't just because he feared infection or that Harry would be a warlock.. Also he says he was doing it because he promised Margaret to watch over Harry?  That never made sense to me if she was a wanted criminal and he a Warden..  All of which screams that she did indeed make a deal with the Council to give birth to a star born in return for them leaving her alone.  Another thought just hit me, Morgan lost track of Harry in the system because Mab arranged it, fearing that Morgan might try to kill him.. Then it makes sense that while Lea in disguise as a "nice lady" who'd check on Harry from time to time when he was in the orphanage while neither Morgan nor Eb could find him in the system.. But then why is it that Harry ended up with Justin?
Oh I am certain that the Senior Council, and the most senior wizards, all knew who and what Harry was. I don't think Cristos does...but that's for other reasons. I am certain either LtW or River Shoulders (or both) will basically reveal to Harry most of what he is and the rest of the star born stuff. Although Jim will surely omit some information just to pull a twist later.

Margaret was around a long time. I suspect she was very like Harry in that she had a certain camaraderie with the Wardens, even though they chased her. If you end up fighting the same monsters you obviously share some beliefs. The way both Morgan and Luccio talk, they knew her personally. So did the Gatekeeper and several others. Including Justin Dumorne. I can't be certain she made a deal, but I am sure she helped them out officially or otherwise.

If you're right about Mab - which is certainly possible, that says all sorts of terrible things about her. Unfortunately, I think it might have been Lea. She had the connection to Margaret and that connects her to Dumorne. Harry saw Lea right after his fight with He Who Walks Behind. Doesn't that seem awfully sus?
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Offline Mira

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Re: More Questions, Sham, Cover Up....
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2021, 12:56:48 AM »
Quote
If you're right about Mab - which is certainly possible, that says all sorts of terrible things about her. Unfortunately, I think it might have been Lea. She had the connection to Margaret and that connects her to Dumorne. Harry saw Lea right after his fight with He Who Walks Behind. Doesn't that seem awfully sus?

Yes, and no, because did he not know Lea was his godmother by that time?  I also got the impression that he summoned her because he felt he needed help to go against Justin.  That duel took place two weeks after the fight with HWWB I believe.  However Lea did keep tabs on him while he was in the orphanage, she was the nice lady who came to see him.  You could be right about her in that she did seem to have an ambitious agenda until she got infected by the Knife.  However having said that it seems contradictory that she'd have steered Justin to Harry and then turn around and give him confidence so Harry would be able to kill Justin.  Come to think of it, if Justin was still a Warden when Harry was born, he'd have known what he was, plotted to have Malcolm killed, then when the extent of Harry's talent became obvious, adopt him to use him for his own purpose, an enforcer.   

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Re: More Questions, Sham, Cover Up....
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2021, 05:08:40 AM »
WoJ There were 40,000 to 50,000 Starborn created 40 years ago.  Not many left now.

Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

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Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: More Questions, Sham, Cover Up....
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2021, 09:07:56 AM »
  Sorry I am rambling this morning, but these squirrels are finding their way onto the exercise wheel
of my brain..

   1] We know that Morgan was aware of Harry from the get go and what he was supposed to be..
    So did he keep quiet at Harry's trial when he was sixteen? If so.  Why? It cannot all be because he fell into Justin's hands..  In fact all the more reason to push for the chop..
    2] At the trial they must have known Harry was the son of Margaret, but were mostly ignorant that Eb was his grand father?  Why promote Harry to full wizard while still a minor?  Overlook sort of that he broke the First Law, putting him under the Doom in the hands of the Blackstaff.. Oh yeah, Eb had orders, watch him, kill him if need be.. If he was going full warlock?  Some thought he already had, or for signs that he couldn't be controlled?  Did being Blackstaff mean that Eb was immune from suffering the same fate as Harry if he went bad?  There were some as late as Summer Knight who were still calling Harry a warlock, how come they weren't demanding Eb's head as well?

So in effect was Harry's trial a sham to cover up the fact that they lost control of him and the experiment back when Malcolm died and Morgan failed to keep track of him?  Also the cover up
continues because they still thought up until Battle Ground that they could still use Harry.. Now, like Kemmler they fear he has become too powerful, so after the Battle of Chicago they set up a kangaroo court to convict him, sort of, they still want to control him... Good luck with that..

I just reread Morgan's microfiction.  Morgan knew that Ebenezer was Margaret's father.  I would assume that whatever Morgan knew, Arthur Langtry also knew.  In that very short story, Morgan told Luccio why he hounded Harry, and from the way he worded it we can safely assume that Captain Luccio already knew that Ebenezer was Harry's grandfather.  Donald Morgan wasn't revealing a hidden secret; the tone of his words was very matter of fact.  Also, from these words,  "I cannot be sure that he is not the monster we all fear, in the process of being born." it appears Captain Luccio already knew most of the story, Warden Morgan was just filling in a few details and his personal feelings on the matter.

Going back to a point I made in another post, Martha Liberty said of Harry to Ebenezer, "You know what he was meant to be."  Rereading the scene in Summer Knight where the Merlin and his allies are about to throw Harry to the wolves, Senior Council member LaFortier was especially harsh, almost as if he had a personal grudge against Harry.  Seeing as they barely knew each other, perhaps a more logical explanation is LaFortier saw an opportunity to get rid of a past mistake.

So the Senior Council; or at least most of its members, discovered or were told about Harry and what he was meant to be, before Harry was even born.  I think that after Margaret LeFay's death the Senior Council wasn't certain about what to do with Harry, after all there was no way to know if he would become a wizard or vanilla mortal, but Morgan said that he tracked Malcom and Harry until shortly before Malcolm was murdered.  To put it another way, the Council had Morgan keep track of Harry for them. 

What if the Senior Council, or at least a majority of it's members, decided it was too dangerous to wait and see if Harry had any magical talent?  What if they decided to act in order to make certain they controlled Harry's potential?  Warden Morgan was too morally stiff to be a part of such a corrupt enterprise so he was sent on a mission to keep him occupied.  The Council has someone who can break the Laws of Magic, when it needs to be done.  Only it was all for nothing because Justin got control of Harry.  That's the secret the Senior Council is covering up.  They ordered Malcolm Dresden's death and at the same time failed to get a hold of Harry.  They're not just murderers, they're inept murderers.

OK, I've just laid out a WAG that Ebenezer killed Malcolm Dresden at the behest of the Senior Council, and if you want to poke holes in that idea, that's fine.  However, I just thought about something that might be evidence for this WAG.  In his final journal entry Warden Morgan says, "Malcolm died while I was on mission elsewhere. I arrived less than ten hours after the child went into the foster care system, and someone made him vanish. Magically, physically, bureaucratically. There was no trace of him, and I searched for years."
But in Peace Talks didn't Ebenezer admit to Harry that he allowed Harry, or made Harry, disappear into the foster care system in order to keep him safe?  Almost like Ebenezer was there when Malcolm Dresden was murdered.  Eb almost would have had to have been there in order to make Harry disappear so quickly and completely.  (Now I'll have to dig up my copy of Peace Talks and reread that conversation.  I'll do it tomorrow.)

P.S.  The only person who didn't lose track of young Harry was Lea.  She guarded Harry from attempts on his life from the Nevernever, so of course she witnessed what happened.  From Harry's memories it appears that Lea visited Harry while he was in the orphanage.  At some point; probably shortly after Harry's magic manifested, she makes a deal with Justin DuMorne and he becomes Harry's magic teacher.  However, that's another story.     
 
 
« Last Edit: May 19, 2021, 11:54:49 PM by KurtinStGeorge »
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Offline Mira

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Re: More Questions, Sham, Cover Up....
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2021, 11:54:29 AM »
Quote
P.S.  The only person who didn't lose track of young Harry was Lea.  She guarded Harry from attempts on his life from the Nevernever, so of course she witnessed what happened.  From Harry's memories it appears that Lea visited Harry while he was in the orphanage.  At some point; probably shortly after Harry's magic manifested, she makes a deal with Justin DuMorne and he becomes Harry's magic teacher.  However, that's another story.     

Yes, and here is another thought I had while reading your post, what if it wasn't Lord Raith that killed Margaret?  It was the White Council, in order to cover up their mistake.  Margaret was set up, and Lord Raith to be the fall guy.

Okay, my brain does weird things early in the morning with just a couple of swallows of coffee... But here goes, Harry wasn't Margaret's first attempt at giving birth to a star born, it was Thomas on orders from the Senior Council. They chose Lord Raith to be the father for a number of obvious reasons, but it didn't work out. Thomas had no talent to speak of and they realized that they couldn't control Lord Raith.  That does explain why Eb, who supposedly hates vampires so much met and had dinner with Margaret and Lord Raith like regular family..  The idea would have been dropped all together, no harm no foul so to speak, Thomas would grow up to be a vampire, and that would be the end of it.  But then Margaret met Malcolm, married and got pregnant, the cover up began to fall apart..  She had to die, it wasn't Lord Raith that killed her, it was Eb on orders of the Council.  He was supposed kill baby Harry as well.  While he could did and could kill his daughter, he couldn't kill a innocent new born, heck at that point he could have been a mere untalented vanilla baby like Thomas was. So Eb told Malcolm to gather up the child and run..  And they remained on the run for the next six years, then Malcolm was murdered, they would have gotten young Harry as well, but as you point out, Lea got involved.  That would explain why Eb supposedly was so hands off as far as his little grandson goes.  It was the only way to keep little Harry safe, a vanilla father and son might slip through the cracks, though apparently Morgan knew where they were, if Eb made any contact, the truth would come out.  Morgan might have prevented the murder, but he was ordered elsewhere at the critical moment.

One more wild ass theory and then I'm done.. It was Lord Raith that betrayed Malcolm and young Harry, because his spies actually ran the motel where the murder took place.  He hoped that by telling the Council Malcolm's location, they could undo the spell that Margaret had put on him that prevented his feeding.  This would explain Eb's rage and sense of betrayal when it comes to vampires..  Of course Harry doesn't know any of this, or he only knows bits and pieces of half truths. So he feels the sense of resentment, that a child would naturally feel when he finds out supposedly that his grandfather was content to abandon him to be a ward of the state.. That kind of resentment sticks with one for a lifetime, and it came out in their bitter argument in Peace Talks..

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: More Questions, Sham, Cover Up....
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2021, 01:14:37 AM »
Before I respond I have to make a correction to what I stated above.  Rereading what Harry and Ebenezer said to each other in Peace Talks I discovered Ebenezer made his own daughter disappear to hide her from his enemies and presumably only made contact with Margaret when her magic ability became apparent.  Harry accused Ebenezer of doing the same thing to him.  He said, "You allowed me to disappear into the foster care system."  Ebenezer didn't deny this.  If Harry was wrong, Ebenezer could have defended himself.  He could have said something like, "Harry, you're wrong.  Someone else, probably Justin DuMorne, was responsible for that.  Whoever it was they were so thorough in doing their job no one could find you.  I'll admit I might have decided to hide you if I had the chance, but I never did."  So, while not absolutely proven, Ebenezer is still a good bet for the person who hid Harry from the Council.  Ebenezer realized that Malcolm Dresden couldn't protect Harry, but the old man would be damned if he'd turn over his grandson to the Council because he feared the Council would use Harry for their own selfish purposes.  So he hid Harry and even Warden Morgan couldn't find him, but Justin; probably with Lea's help, did find Harry.

Well that's a bold idea, Ebenezer killing his own daughter.  Though I'm not sure I can go along with it.  First, Ebenezer seemed shocked when Harry told him that Thomas is his grandson.  He seemed shocked that Margaret had sexual relations with Raith, though frankly, that's something that he should have been worried about.  Also, how would Eb know that Thomas was Margaret's first attempt at creating a starborn child?  It would also mean that Ebenezer was lying when he told Harry that Lord Raith killed Margaret.  That's a little more duplicitous than I believe Ebenezer to be.

Here's a different suggestion.  Normally the White Council solves its internal problems on its own.  But knowing the Blackstaff would never move against his own daughter, I wonder if the Merlin or another Senior Council member would be tempted to use someone from outside the Council to do their dirty work?  I'm not saying I buy this idea, I'm just trying it on for size.  Right now it's only a maybe 
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