What would be a counter to Carlos?

[Yuillegan]

Being aware of Bob does not mean connecting all the dots. If Nicreally understood what Bob was we would have had an attempt to steal him. But a spirit supporting butters? That can be anything.

Why? Nicodemus already has a far more potent and knowledgeable spirit. What could he possibly need Bob for that Anduriel couldn't do?

I don't think Nic has designs on godhood either. Doesn't seem to need it. And as Mab points out, it comes with restrictions.

[morriswalters]

Not everybody Nic comes in contact with has an Anduriel.  They might settle for a Ford, or Bob as it were.

[Yuillegan]

Not everybody Nic comes in contact with has an Anduriel.  They might settle for a Ford, or Bob as it were.

I don't quite follow. Are you saying he might give Bob to one of his allies? I can't see him giving it to a Denarian. He wouldn't want them getting any stronger, but also any of the Fallen are probably by and large far more knowledgeable than Bob.

He might gift Bob to Mab or Cowl...assuming that's possible, and assuming he knows they would want him.

[Arjan]

He keeps Bob for himself. There are so many things he can do with such a resource. Just like Lasciel wants to have Bonea:

“Meaning that since a whisper in your ear that should have killed you seems to have failed, I intend to skip the subtlety, rip your head apart, and collect our child. She’s far too valuable a resource to be allowed to die with you.”

Bob is more powerful.

[groinkick]

Lol who said they'll fight?

Harry can shield better. And is stronger in almost every way.... Carlos has skill enough...but it wouldn't even be a fight.

I didn't say they would fight, but I do think it's going that direction.

I know you hate it but I'm going by words of jim.  He said that Carlos's style is the kind to defeat Harry.  He said that Harry vs Carlos would be like the Olympic fencer vs the Olympic weight lifter. 

I think Harry would ultimately win, and should win, but Jim doesn't want him to be Silver age Superman who's unbeatable.  Jim also said he used D&D style talents for his characters.  So Harry has certain buffs, and weaknesses just like everyone else.  Carlos just happens to match up well against Harry because of his particular style of magic.

[groinkick]

Bob is more powerful.

I wouldn't go that far...  He may be right now simply because he's more aware, however she has access to more knowledge than he does, and probably more power along with it.

[Arjan]

I wouldn't go that far...  He may be right now simply because he's more aware, however she has access to more knowledge than he does, and probably more power along with it.

Bonea does not have all the knowledge the fallen angel had and Bob is a spiritual heavyweight.

[The_Sibelis]

Bonea does not have all the knowledge the fallen angel had and Bob is a spiritual heavyweight.

what makes you think that? She has the knowledge. But it's a read only program she had to manually connect to her user interface. And... Memories are power. It's Bob's knowledge and memory that makes him a spiritual powerhouse. Bonnie has more knowledge, ergo more power. She doesn't understand how to use it to it's potential perhaps, but it's there.

[Arjan]

what makes you think that? She has the knowledge. But it's a read only program she had to manually connect to her user interface. And... Memories are power. It's Bob's knowledge and memory that makes him a spiritual powerhouse. Bonnie has more knowledge, ergo more power. She doesn't understand how to use it to it's potential perhaps, but it's there.

Because Lash did not have them. She originated from a small part of the whole.

[The_Sibelis]

Because Lash did not have them. She originated from a small part of the whole.

that is completely erroneous. She was a perfect carbon copy of Lasciel, an imprint when she arrived. That's part of why it was such a big deal Harry more or less redeemed her. Nothing in her story implies she's anything less than this. Indeed Dresden had to point out to her she wasn't the real Lasciel, as the real one was immutable. Kinda hard to consider yourself the original with big gapping holes in your millennia of memories.
Also why even without the coin she could offer knowledge, knew what starborn was, ect. She just didn't give him more because she was angling him into needing the coin most of her existence.

[Arjan]

that is completely erroneous. She was a perfect carbon copy of Lasciel, an imprint when she arrived. That's part of why it was such a big deal Harry more or less redeemed her. Nothing in her story implies she's anything less than this. Indeed Dresden had to point out to her she wasn't the real Lasciel, as the real one was immutable. Kinda hard to consider yourself the original with big gapping holes in your millennia of memories.
Also why even without the coin she could offer knowledge, knew what starborn was, ect. She just didn't give him more because she was angling him into needing the coin most of her existence.

Actually it is not just logical, it is what Harry said in the books. It is what the whole plot is based on. Lash is not Lasciel. It is part of Lasciel that was placed in Harry.

She was the link to the real Lasciel and she would return to the real Lasciel if Harry took the coin. At the end she renounced Lasciel and became something new but that new being was not equal to Lasciel.

[The_Sibelis]

Actually it is not just logical, it is what Harry said in the books. It is what the whole plot is based on. Lash is not Lasciel. It is part of Lasciel that was placed in Harry.

you are heavily misinterpreting what he said. Go reread that. She's made up of a piece of her energy imprinted on him, a copy.

She was the link to the real Lasciel and she would return to the real Lasciel if Harry took the coin. At the end she renounced Lasciel and became something new but that new being was not equal to Lasciel.

indeed, she was never equal to Lasciel, and that fact is completely non germaine to the point. She was her shadow, her replica, her copy. Nothing has ever been said or implied her memories or personality in the beginning was anything different than the original. That is by and large the point. THAT'S what the whole plot is based on. Lasciels immutable, but her copy was made of and sustained by a mortal who CAN change. Hence Lasciel still considering Bonnie her daughter.

[Yuillegan]

He keeps Bob for himself. There are so many things he can do with such a resource. Just like Lasciel wants to have Bonea:


Bob is more powerful.

As I said before, what information does Bob have or power does Bob have that Anduriel couldn't provide? Anduriel has so much more that he is a whole different weight class by several orders of magnitude, even limited as he is, let alone unbound. Bob's most useful knowledge might be specific things he has learned about his various masters, and perhaps certain inherited knowledge from his creators (parents). Depending on who you believe those are, that's fairly significant. But it hardly seems likely Bob is the only spirit of intellect, not to mention he isn't even the top of the chain. That's probably the Archive in a sense. I am not talking about the mortal vessel (Ivy) but the spiritual mass that she carries. And as strong and intelligent as the Archive is...she did get captured by the Denarians after all.

I am interested to why you believe Bob is more powerful than Bonnie. Certainly he is more skillful at utilising his knowledge and powers, he's had centuries to learn whereas Bonnie is only getting started. But in terms of magical muscle, I'd tend to believe that Bonnie might be stronger. She has the knowledge base that Lash had, which is the knowledge that Lasciel had when she imprinted herself on Harry. It's true, we don't know how much knowledge she had. But she had enough that she seemed to think she was Lasciel, and knew enough secrets of the universe to do all sorts of scary things. Harry REALLY wasted his time with her, he could have learned so much without taking up her power. Instead he took the power and very little of her knowledge. I do acknowledge we haven't seen anything yet from Bonnie that shows her might (although we will I expect). She was expected to be able to go out an kill his loved ones accidentally were she birthed incorrectly. That alone right there says she is very strong. Maggie was protected by an extremely strong threshold and a cadre of angel guards, a former Knight of the Cross (although injured) and his battle-hardened wife, and a Foo Dog scion. Mab was certain Bonnie could get through all of that and kill Maggie, in attempting to connect with her. Bonnie would kill her by accident. Bob couldn't get past the first layer of those defences if he tried.

[TheCuriousFan]

As I said before, what information does Bob have or power does Bob have that Anduriel couldn't provide? Anduriel has so much more that he is a whole different weight class by several orders of magnitude, even limited as he is, let alone unbound. Bob's most useful knowledge might be specific things he has learned about his various masters, and perhaps certain inherited knowledge from his creators (parents). Depending on who you believe those are, that's fairly significant. But it hardly seems likely Bob is the only spirit of intellect, not to mention he isn't even the top of the chain. That's probably the Archive in a sense. I am not talking about the mortal vessel (Ivy) but the spiritual mass that she carries. And as strong and intelligent as the Archive is...she did get captured by the Denarians after all.

I am interested to why you believe Bob is more powerful than Bonnie. Certainly he is more skillful at utilising his knowledge and powers, he's had centuries to learn whereas Bonnie is only getting started. But in terms of magical muscle, I'd tend to believe that Bonnie might be stronger. She has the knowledge base that Lash had, which is the knowledge that Lasciel had when she imprinted herself on Harry. It's true, we don't know how much knowledge she had. But she had enough that she seemed to think she was Lasciel, and knew enough secrets of the universe to do all sorts of scary things. Harry REALLY wasted his time with her, he could have learned so much without taking up her power. Instead he took the power and very little of her knowledge. I do acknowledge we haven't seen anything yet from Bonnie that shows her might (although we will I expect). She was expected to be able to go out an kill his loved ones accidentally were she birthed incorrectly. That alone right there says she is very strong. Maggie was protected by an extremely strong threshold and a cadre of angel guards, a former Knight of the Cross (although injured) and his battle-hardened wife, and a Foo Dog scion. Mab was certain Bonnie could get through all of that and kill Maggie, in attempting to connect with her. Bonnie would kill her by accident. Bob couldn't get past the first layer of those defences if he tried.

It'd be hard to balance the book series if a spontaneous addition to it started giving Harry 25-50 years worth of skill growth between each book after all.

[Arjan]

As I said before, what information does Bob have or power does Bob have that Anduriel couldn't provide? Anduriel has so much more that he is a whole different weight class by several orders of magnitude, even limited as he is, let alone unbound. Bob's most useful knowledge might be specific things he has learned about his various masters, and perhaps certain inherited knowledge from his creators (parents). Depending on who you believe those are, that's fairly significant. But it hardly seems likely Bob is the only spirit of intellect, not to mention he isn't even the top of the chain. That's probably the Archive in a sense. I am not talking about the mortal vessel (Ivy) but the spiritual mass that she carries. And as strong and intelligent as the Archive is...she did get captured by the Denarians after all.

I am interested to why you believe Bob is more powerful than Bonnie. Certainly he is more skillful at utilising his knowledge and powers, he's had centuries to learn whereas Bonnie is only getting started. But in terms of magical muscle, I'd tend to believe that Bonnie might be stronger. She has the knowledge base that Lash had, which is the knowledge that Lasciel had when she imprinted herself on Harry. It's true, we don't know how much knowledge she had. But she had enough that she seemed to think she was Lasciel, and knew enough secrets of the universe to do all sorts of scary things. Harry REALLY wasted his time with her, he could have learned so much without taking up her power. Instead he took the power and very little of her knowledge. I do acknowledge we haven't seen anything yet from Bonnie that shows her might (although we will I expect). She was expected to be able to go out an kill his loved ones accidentally were she birthed incorrectly. That alone right there says she is very strong. Maggie was protected by an extremely strong threshold and a cadre of angel guards, a former Knight of the Cross (although injured) and his battle-hardened wife, and a Foo Dog scion. Mab was certain Bonnie could get through all of that and kill Maggie, in attempting to connect with her. Bonnie would kill her by accident. Bob couldn't get past the first layer of those defences if he tried.

Harry describes several times how powerful Bob is as a spiritual being and we have seen him in action. We know how powerful Lasciel is but Lash was only the disconnected shadow of Lasciel. Their child has potential of course but Bob has centuries of spiritual growth.

I would be careful with reading Mab’s words about Bonnie. Sure she can not lie but at the time she was intentionally misleading. And she would not crash through, she would try to get invited by Maggie or something like that and she would have no ill intent, but dangerous because of her lack of wisdom.