Author Topic: Marcone/Namshiel, It Seems Weird to Me...  (Read 5245 times)

Offline groinkick

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Re: Marcone/Namshiel, It Seems Weird to Me...
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2021, 05:19:31 AM »
All out civil war between the Denarians, interesting... Already a power struggle between Nic and Tessa, could it be that was the reason he wanted the Grail? Or more to the point, all of the Artifacts.

Marcone hooks up with Tessa.....  That could change things.
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Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Marcone/Namshiel, It Seems Weird to Me...
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2021, 02:45:25 AM »
All out civil war between the Denarians, interesting... Already a power struggle between Nic and Tessa, could it be that was the reason he wanted the Grail? Or more to the point, all of the Artifacts.

If Forthill's information is anywhere near accurate, Nic and Tessa have been doing the rivalry thing for centuries already. I think going to the extreme of killing Deirdre to get his hands on the artifacts was about something more urgent than the power struggle that's already been between them.

Nic might have been pushed there by learning from Harry about the Hellfire being used in the attack on Arctis Tor and inferring there was a n-fected among the Denarians and Tessa might be it. But I think his desperation to claim the weapons had more to do with the upcoming culmination of the current starborn cycle. It's 'five minutes to midnight' for the immortals, and all.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Marcone/Namshiel, It Seems Weird to Me...
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2021, 04:51:22 AM »
In stories about compacts with the devil his promises turn out to be empty. The big plan is probably whispered in Nicodemus ears by Anduriel or unrecognizable corrupted by him. The important thing that happened to Nicodemus in Skin game is not that he got the grale or that he failed to get the rest but that he killed his daughter. The fallen are never finished with corrupting you, you can always fall deeper into the pit.

The final triumph of the fallen is shown by Nicodemus and Tessa together attacking and blaming the Carpenters. Never mind that they failed, they are now even more in their clutches.

https://xenagoguevicene.wordpress.com/2018/10/26/gothic-horror-emphasized-the-monk-by-matthew-lewis-1796/

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Offline Basil

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Re: Marcone/Namshiel, It Seems Weird to Me...
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2021, 01:22:18 AM »
Nicodemus claimed that his goal was to save the world....  I think he was being completely truthful.  It's just gone terribly wrong, and I agree you can't play with powers like Anduriel without being corrupted by them.  Not forever.  But, Nicodemus still thinks he's in charge, still thinks he's going to save the world.   

Our little Nicky is probably the Nicodemus of the Bible (John 3:1-21; John 7:50-51 and John 19:39-42).  Nicodemus comes to Jesus and they discuss whether one can be "born again" from above.  Later, he questioned the appropriateness of Jesus' kangaroo trial before the Sanhedrin and then still later is said to have assisted Joseph of Arimathea in preparing Jesus for burial.

Our Nicky also has Judas' noose and the thirty coins, which also fits, given that Nicodemus was in the right place and time to grab those items.  He also claims to be two thousand years old. 

Btw, Nicodemus is a Saint in the Catholic Church, making that exchange with Harry all the more amusingly ironic when Harry remarks that Nicodemus will one day be a Saint. 

But, Nicodemus' degradation is even more tragic.  He was an actual Saint.  Today, in his pride and arrogance, he's committed every conceivable crime and sin and has killed the only thing in the world that he appears to have loved.  He can't admit to himself that he's not the one in charge. 

Does anyone actually think that a Fallen Angel would ever consider a human an equal partner?  If any Fallen Angel thought that, they would not have fallen.  Some humans are more useful than others, more cooperative and effective when controlled more subtly.

Back to Marcone.  Marcone may think he's a partner of Namshiel, and it may be that Namshiel's previous host was "weak" but Marcone will end up that way too, it just may take a long time.  But, consider.  Marcone is a gangster, he was thoroughly corrupt and degraded before taking up the coin.  Unlike Nicodemus, Marcone was no Saint.   

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Marcone/Namshiel, It Seems Weird to Me...
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2021, 03:03:25 AM »
Our little Nicky is probably the Nicodemus of the Bible (John 3:1-21; John 7:50-51 and John 19:39-42).  Nicodemus comes to Jesus and they discuss whether one can be "born again" from above.  Later, he questioned the appropriateness of Jesus' kangaroo trial before the Sanhedrin and then still later is said to have assisted Joseph of Arimathea in preparing Jesus for burial.

Seems to me that using his real name if he was actually someone biblical would be more than a little stupid. He makes a point of periodically attacking the church's records about him every century or so to sow confusion, but he leaves that out there?

I think Anduriel hooked up with a near perfect bastard originally, and appropriating the name was some kind of dark joke. Sure, letting him think he's an equal partner is probably playing to his conceit. A genuinely rotten human being has a level of creativity about his cruelty that the Fallen probably genuinely appreciates and respects on some level, but at the end of the day he's only a favoured class of dixie cup.

And as for using the Outsider threat to steer him, a truth that will get the mark to do what you want is even better than a lie that will get the mark to do what you want, because it cuts out the risk of losing your grip if he ever catches on to the lie. A devil that picks the one truth of cosmic horror that will break a man and program him into a fanatic ready to scorch the earth to prevent empty night is playing a more profound game than one that just lies well.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Marcone/Namshiel, It Seems Weird to Me...
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2021, 01:44:24 PM »
If past experiences are a guide then denarians will always choose lie and betrayal even when truth and loyalty benefits them more. It is their nature. It is what they want and what they believe will work.

Harry knows and was could defeat them in small favor and skin game because of that.
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Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Marcone/Namshiel, It Seems Weird to Me...
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2021, 06:43:34 PM »
Nicodemus has a treachery addiction, even when it's not in his interests.

That's not to say Anduriel suffers from the same flaw when it comes to manipulating Nicodemus.

Forthill also said it sometimes takes the Church centuries to understand some of Nicodemus' lies. That's hard to achieve without weaving some truth in to muddy the waters.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Marcone/Namshiel, It Seems Weird to Me...
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2021, 06:55:13 PM »
Nicodemus has a treachery addiction, even when it's not in his interests.

That's not to say Anduriel suffers from the same flaw when it comes to manipulating Nicodemus.

Forthill also said it sometimes takes the Church centuries to understand some of Nicodemus' lies. That's hard to achieve without weaving some truth in to muddy the waters.
The whole interaction between fallen and host is about lying and betrayal. In the end Anduriel made Nicodemus kill his own daughter and for what? It won’t be worth it.

Lash said it in so many words to Harry. Seduce and destroy.

Quote
She let out a cold little laugh. "Such arrogance. Do you think you could change the eternal, mortal? I was brought to life by the Word of the Almighty himself, for a purpose so complex and fundamental that you could not begin to comprehend it. You are nothing, mortal. You are a flickering spark. You will be here, and be gone, and in the aeons that come after, when your very kind have dwindled and perished, you will be but one of uncounted legions of those whom I have seduced and destroyed." Her eyes narrowed. "You. Cannot. Change. Me."
« Last Edit: May 09, 2021, 07:29:56 PM by Arjan »
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Offline Mira

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Re: Marcone/Namshiel, It Seems Weird to Me...
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2021, 08:54:42 PM »
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     She let out a cold little laugh. "Such arrogance. Do you think you could change the eternal, mortal? I was brought to life by the Word of the Almighty himself, for a purpose so complex and fundamental that you could not begin to comprehend it. You are nothing, mortal. You are a flickering spark. You will be here, and be gone, and in the aeons that come after, when your very kind have dwindled and perished, you will be but one of uncounted legions of those whom I have seduced and destroyed." Her eyes narrowed. "You. Cannot. Change. Me."

But he managed to, didn't he.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Marcone/Namshiel, It Seems Weird to Me...
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2021, 09:29:01 PM »
But he managed to, didn't he.
Sure but that was another story
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Offline Mira

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Re: Marcone/Namshiel, It Seems Weird to Me...
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2021, 05:47:00 AM »
Sure but that was another story

No, it is the exception that proves the rule..

Offline Arjan

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Re: Marcone/Namshiel, It Seems Weird to Me...
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2021, 09:58:40 AM »
No, it is the exception that proves the rule..
We were talking about the fallen, not it’s shadow. The shadow can tell us something about the fallen mindset but it is more vulnerable.
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Offline Con

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Re: Marcone/Namshiel, It Seems Weird to Me...
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2021, 11:28:45 AM »
Honestly I expect Marcone drew up a contract with adendums and failsafes similar to what Butters did with Bob.

Offline Mira

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Re: Marcone/Namshiel, It Seems Weird to Me...
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2021, 11:33:06 AM »
Honestly I expect Marcone drew up a contract with adendums and failsafes similar to what Butters did with Bob.

  And since when did that really work with one of the Fallen?  A lot easier to be rid of Bob than a coin.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Marcone/Namshiel, It Seems Weird to Me...
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2021, 05:45:01 PM »
Honestly I expect Marcone drew up a contract with adendums and failsafes similar to what Butters did with Bob.
Sign here for your soul? In blood? That is a classic one, it never ends well.
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